Author Topic: Does Solar make sense?  (Read 2352 times)

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BT

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Does Solar make sense?
« on: April 16, 2007, 10:32:55 AM »
The New York Times and the San Francisco Chronicle had stories this weekend that presented opposite views of the economics of residential solar power. While the NYT says solar power “makes no economic sense” for the average homeowner, the San Francisco Chronicle says “the economic benefits are impossible to ignore.”

Who is right? Maybe both papers…

We’ll start with this story in the Chronicle, a report on how solar paneled-roofs are a big trend in California that says this:

Even for those who aren’t especially concerned with the environmental benefits of solar power, the economic benefits are impossible to ignore. The cost of a system for an average home, says Sun Light & Power’s Gerber, is about $29,000. Subtract about $7,000 for the state rebate, which is currently based on how much electricity the system is capable of producing. Subtract an additional $2,000 for the federal tax credit, and the cost is reduced to $20,000. Over the 25- to 30-year life span of the system, the homeowner will save — based on current electrical rates and a conservative estimate of a 6 percent annual inflation rate for future costs — about $60,000 in electricity. After subtracting the system’s cost, the bottom line is $40,000 in savings.

The Chronicle’s math needs a bit of work - the solar panel still costs $29,000, it’s just that $7,000 of it is paid for by California taxpayers rather than the homeowner, and $2,000 is subsidized by Uncle Sam’s taxpayers. Still, even with those costs factored in, that’s still $33,000 in savings over 25-30 years, if the Chronicle’s assumptions are right.

The NYT, on the other hand, reports that, thanks to that $2,000 federal tax credit and “generous rebates” from states like New Jersey and California, “it has never cost less to install a solar power system”  - and yet “it still makes no economic sense.”

You might want photovoltaic solar panels to generate your own electricity out of a belief that you will save the planet. But, as is the case with hybrid vehicles, you certainly should not do it to save money. An online calculator (www.findsolar.com/index.php?page=rightforme) created by solar power advocates and the Department of Energy demonstrates just how hard it is to justify the switch. For instance, a homeowner in New Jersey whose electric bill is an above-average $100 a month could buy a system for about $54,000, it says. After the state rebate of $18,468 and the $2,000 federal tax credit, the system would cost $33,532.

And how many years will it take before you see any savings? From 11 to 22 years. The average payback is 14 years, said Polly N. Shaw, a senior regulatory analyst with the California Public Utilities Commission. The calculator provides a lot of other information, but it doesn’t figure in the $1,580 a year your cash outlay would have been making had you left the money in a conservative investment like a government bond. That’s more than enough to cover the monthly electric bill.

If the NYT is right, then solar panels are a bad investment. The biggest differences in the two articles: The Chronicle puts the cost of a residential solar power system at $29,000 (before rebates and tax credits) while the NYT puts the initial cost at $54,000. That’s a $25,000 difference, nearly double the cost. New Jersey’s rebate amount, used in the NYT story, is more than double the California rebate amount used in the Chronicle story.

Beyond that, there are other differences. The Chronicle is writing about solar panel prices in California, which has 85 percent of all installed solar power systems in the nation. I haven’t priced solar systems in California but I’m betting the basic economic effects of competition and economies of scale are driving prices down in California. Also, thanks to California’s sky-high residential real estate prices, solar systems may not seem as expensive as they might to somebody building a new home in a less-costly region.

The Chronicle story mentions a new development near San Francisco of 77 homes that all have solar roofs - homes that “range in size from 3,673 to 4,243 square feet and are priced at about $1.3 million.” New homes of similar size built in Williamson County, Tennessee, south of Nashville, the priciest suburban county in the state (and the county where Nissan moved its HQ to from suburban LA) would cost around $400,000-$600,000. A $30,000 solar power system changes the monthly payment by a larger percentage when added to a $400,000 home then when added to a $1.3 million home.

So, both papers may be right. For some folks, solar systems may indeed make “no economic sense,” while for others the economic benefits may indeed be “impossible to ignore.”

But, wait… it’s not that simple. Both papers highlight - and both leave out - other key economic factors you should consider in deciding whether or not solar is right for you.

The NYT mentions something that the Chronicle left out of its economic calculations: The lost-opportunity cost of buying solar panels rather than investing your money in government bonds. Using its New Jersey cost estimate and rebate info, the NYT says the more than $33,000 a homeowner would spend on solar could generate nearly $1,600 a year in interest if invested instead in a conservative investment like a government bond.

The Chronicle article, on the other hand, mentions something that the NYT left out: Net-metering. California is a state with a “net metering” law requiring utilities to allow homeowners to connect their solar panels to the power grid via an inverter and sell excess power to the power company.

Not all states require net-metering. CitizenRe, a company that aims to revolutionize the financing of residential solar power systems, provides a helpful map of states that do.

So, should you spend money on solar panels for your house? The answer is … you have to figure that out for yourself, based on how the economics works out for you in your state.

If cost is your deciding factor.

It might not be.

While the economics of solar are still tricking and open to debate, the environmental benefits are much more clear. Also, if you want to be an early-adopter to encourage the advancement of the technology, go for it because as the market expands for residential solar power generating equipment, the industry may attract more investment that may fund more innovation that lead to more-efficient solar power-generating technologies, lower prices, or both.

Photovoltaic technology has been around for more than a century - the first working photovoltaic solar cell was built in 1883 - but it isn’t the only solar power technology out there. Solar dyes and other, newer solar technologies are in development. A growing market for solar systems generally will help grow that part of the solar business too.

source

modestyblase

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Re: Does Solar make sense?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2007, 11:58:43 AM »
The environmental factor would be my deciding factor, as opposed to any financial incentive. Of course, I'm not keen on government bonds, either  ;D

If a person or group of persons in a neighborhood had enough solar power, they could be paid to provide power, as is the case with Darryl(sp?) Hannah. That is a factor not mentioned in either article.

BT

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Re: Does Solar make sense?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2007, 12:13:27 PM »
The Chronicle article, on the other hand, mentions something that the NYT left out: Net-metering. California is a state with a “net metering” law requiring utilities to allow homeowners to connect their solar panels to the power grid via an inverter and sell excess power to the power company.

from the article

modestyblase

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Re: Does Solar make sense?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2007, 12:43:17 PM »
Ahh, I overlooked or somehow or something, yeah, I missed it.

I blame it on the vodka tendrils still infecting my brain.

It is one of the things that cinches it for me. Not that I plan on being a homeowner in the foreseeable future, and I'm terribly uninformed re: Texas' stance on it. I wonder how it affects residential real estate transactions in states not inclined to pushing the solar-power agenda.

Also, $100 is an average electric bill in NJ? I am in the wrong state! I have an apt. and my bill last month, all frugal measures endured, was over $200!

I recall reading something about a Scottish company that "created" energy using magnets(rather, they increased the energy presently in the magnets). http://www.steorn.net/

Amianthus

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Re: Does Solar make sense?
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2007, 12:48:44 PM »
I recall reading something about a Scottish company that "created" energy using magnets(rather, they increased the energy presently in the magnets). http://www.steorn.net/

Oh goody. Yet another perpetual motion machine.

ROFL
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

modestyblase

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Re: Does Solar make sense?
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2007, 12:59:12 PM »
Yes, another perpetual motion machine. I haven't given it much research(i.e., interest). Any links you can point me to?

What I initially found most humourous was wondering *how* these scottish fellows came up with the idea-I envisioned two drunk scots playing with magnets. 'Course I'll never know, but it is humourous.

Amianthus

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Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

modestyblase

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Re: Does Solar make sense?
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2007, 02:47:13 PM »
I should have seen that coming.  :D

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Does Solar make sense?
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2007, 06:01:17 PM »
I live in sunny South Florida, where we have lots and lots of sunshine. I have only one AC in my house, a small 1100 square foot 2 bedroom 1 bath home with an unoccupied garage apt attached. The small 600 BTU AC in the small bedroom I use only on the warmest nights and to avoid heat prostration after doing yardwork.  My electric bill varies from $50 to $90 per month. Solar panels should make sense in my area, and a solar water heater even more, but there are no state rebates on the latter, and each and every person I have called about solar anything has turned out to seem like a sleazy flim-flam man with less knowledge of solar than even I have.

None of the various plans offered to me would ever pay for itself. I can do the math.

I know that solar panels and water heaters are indeed a good idea and are economical and quite feasible, since something like 80% of the private homes in Israel seem to have them and they seem to work. FL is further South then Israel, but then Israel never has hurricanes. Israeli si not the only country that makes good use of solar power, but it is one where it is common and apparently quite functional.

I don't know whether the Israeli government and/or power companies subsidize solar water heaters or solar electricity panels. I would be all for buying them if I could find a company that seems to be only slightly more honest than Joe Subaru.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

kimba1

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Re: Does Solar make sense?
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2007, 06:53:37 PM »
ok now you`ve done it
check this link out

http://www.freelectricity.com/

sounds alot alike to me

I just to see the device

You see I`ve been trying to make such a device for 25 friggin years!!!
did you know magnets can explode
I learned that the hard way.
heat anything hot enough, bad things happen

kimba1

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Re: Does Solar make sense?
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2007, 09:01:00 PM »
the problem is we keep thinking one source of power like we do with oil.
but lets see the math
$200 month=$2400 a year
$24k in 10 years
it still equal alot of years to break even
this not mentioning can solar colectors last more than 10 years
and can it on a cloudy day supply all the power needs of that home through the night?


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Does Solar make sense?
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2007, 10:52:20 PM »
It is very hard to believe that this Hummingbird engine will work. If it did work, it could be used for cars, trucks, trains and maybe even planes. Presumably, it takes 440 kw to spin it, and that produces 1200 kw. That is a definition of a perpetual motion machine., and I don't think it will work at all.

Three years ago, I bought a magnetic device in a garage sale for $3.00 that presumably would improve the performance of a Diesel engine by "as much as 30%". You just clamp it around a fuel line, and it is supposed to use its magnets to align the molecules in the
the fuel to make them easier to burn.

Perhaps the molecules are now happily marching in unison to their fiery deaths, but  there is ZERO effect in mileage. It was worth $3.00  to read the promotional drivel that came with the thing. The usual price seems to be $15.95, but they are selling them for as much as $200 , or at least trying to collect  from people who just might be less gullible than I.


 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Does Solar make sense?
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2007, 11:42:01 PM »
Three years ago, I bought a magnetic device in a garage sale for $3.00 that presumably would improve the performance of a Diesel engine by "as much as 30%". You just clamp it around a fuel line, and it is supposed to use its magnets to align the molecules in the
the fuel to make them easier to burn.

Diesel fuel is non-ferrous, and therefore not affected by magnets.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

The_Professor

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Re: Does Solar make sense?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2007, 12:53:01 AM »
the problem is we keep thinking one source of power like we do with oil.
but lets see the math
$200 month=$2400 a year
$24k in 10 years
it still equal alot of years to break even
this not mentioning can solar colectors last more than 10 years
and can it on a cloudy day supply all the power needs of that home through the night?



Perhpas the issue is not how much it costs but how much you save each month plus the add'l contribution to the enivronment.

kimba1

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Re: Does Solar make sense?
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2007, 02:22:57 AM »
actually
I`m not sure it totally cover all the eletrical needs of any house that has it.
it`s all assumed by us all isn`t it?
do these solar panel owner use the same amount as us or less to compensate for the panel usage?