Fewer Guns, Fewer Deaths

[Michael Tee]

<<In that instance, [where a law-abiding citizen buys a gun for non-criminal reasons, owns it uneventfully and then is subjected to events or pressures that turn him into a very hostile, angry and destructive person reaching for the closest gun at hand] the gun is not the issue; the lack of stress management skills is.>>

You're partially right - - the issue is both lack of stress management skills AND easy access to firepower.  One of which can be easily legislated against and one of which can't.  Which of the two factors leading to school shootings do YOU think the government oughtta concentrate on first?

[modestyblase]

Which of the two factors leading to school shootings do YOU think the government oughtta concentrate on first?

Required stress management courses.
That being said, there will always be loose cannons, and there will always be tragedies. They are unavoidable.

[Michael Tee]

MT:  <<I don't agree with sirs' assumption that any non-criminal guy can get a gun as easily or as quickly from underworld sources as he can from the top drawer of his own night-table.>>

modesty:  <<Visit a ghetto.>>

I wouldn't equate the phrase "any . . . guy"  with "ghetto guy."  

Sure it may be easier for some folks (ghetto dwellers being only one example) to get an illegal gun, but that doesn't mean it's easier for everyone.  And how many school shootings do you know of where the shooter was a ghetto dweller?  

[Michael Tee]

<<That being said, there will always be loose cannons, and there will always be tragedies. They are unavoidable.>>

That's probably true, but "unavoidable" does not mean that they can't be at least partially preventable.  Gun control properly applied probably could prevent some if not all of the tragedy.  Why would anyone want to avoid gun control simply because some killers could still slip through the net, even if it stops others?

[The_Professor]

How about they can own a licensed gun if they have no criminal record and never pleaded insanity to any criminal charges?  And the gun they own has to be kept on the premises of a licensed gun club or shooting range which will lose its licence and forfeit a five million dollar bond if any gun in its custody ever strays off the premises?

Actually, if I want a gun, why can't I have it at home?

Oops, that's right, I already do!

[The_Professor]

I don't own a gun.

Have never felt the need for one, and am quite happy not owning one.

But tell me i can't own one and i'll buy one before the ink is dry on your law.
 
Because then i will feel the need for one.

Hear hear!

[The_Professor]

<<A) I never said/implied "any non-criminal", and B) I never said/implied "easily".  For once Tee, try to keep it honest.  Anyone who decides to perform an illegal activiity, is NOT a "non-criminal".  Anyone that acts to use a gun illegally is NOT a "non-criminal".  Capisce'?>>

Fair enough but my point was that not everyone will find it easy to get guns if guns are either outlawed or highly restricted.  The argument that "only cops and criminals will have guns" ignores the fact that some people who up to a certain point have been leading non-criminal lives will have to figure out how to get a gun illegally if they develop a sudden need for one, and that by the time they finally get one, they may no longer wish to use it.  OTOH, if guns can be bought over the counter at any sporting-goods store, somebody is going to get one the same day he feels the urge to use one and the end result will be an otherwise preventable gun crime.

Actrually, you can go to a sporting goods store and purchase one. I did.

[Amianthus]

I will take that as the joke that I am sure it was intended to be, and note in reply that Don Imus is probably duly thankful that his country did NOT adopt the Swiss model.

Having a number of relatives who live in Switzerland, I can assure you it isn't a joke.

The safest neighborhoods I ever lived in in the US had a high gun ownership rate. We could hear the nightly gunfire from the projects (inside city limits where gun ownership was more restricted) but never even had a breakin in our neighborhood.

[modestyblase]

MT:  <<I don't agree with sirs' assumption that any non-criminal guy can get a gun as easily or as quickly from underworld sources as he can from the top drawer of his own night-table.>>
modesty:  <<Visit a ghetto.>>
I wouldn't equate the phrase "any . . . guy"  with "ghetto guy."  

Less "any guy" being "ghetto guy" and more illegal trafficking of firearms occurs therein.

That's probably true, but "unavoidable" does not mean that they can't be at least partially preventable.  Gun control properly applied probably could prevent some if not all of the tragedy.  Why would anyone want to avoid gun control simply because some killers could still slip through the net, even if it stops others?

Because loss of liberty is not acceptable; but to humor your argument, particularly when de facto circumstances suggests legislation of this is a failure, why bother?

[Amianthus]

Sure it may be easier for some folks (ghetto dwellers being only one example) to get an illegal gun, but that doesn't mean it's easier for everyone.  And how many school shootings do you know of where the shooter was a ghetto dweller? 

<sarcasm>
Yeah, we got all those "gated ghettos" in the US, where security guards prevent non-ghetto dwellers from entering.
</sarcasm>

I am against prohibition of any potentially deadly substance; drugs, alcohol, and firearms among them. We tried prohibition once, it didn't work. We "backdoored" prohibition a second time, it's not working any better. Why would a third prohibition work?

[Plane]

<<What kind of crime would this [restricting access to one's gun to licensed, bonded gun clubs] prevent?>>

Crimes where a law-abiding citizen buys a gun for non-criminal reasons, owns it uneventfully and then is subjected to events or pressures that turn him into a very hostile, angry and destructive person reaching for the closest gun at hand.

I don't agree with sirs' assumption that any non-criminal guy can get a gun as easily or as quickly from underworld sources as he can from the top drawer of his own night-table.

Some of them can, some of them can't.  Some of them will cool off before they succeed in getting the gun from underworld sources.  In NONE of the school shootings that I am aware of was the shooter already a member of the underworld with easy and quick access to illegal and banned weapons. 

Coould we possibly make guns as hard to get as Marijuanna?

[modestyblase]

Plane.

Surely you cannot think that marijuana is hard to acquire.

[Plane]

Plane.

Surely you cannot think that marijuana is hard to acquire.

Wouldn't guns be harder to smuggle than MJ?

[modestyblase]

As the current state of matters suggests, clearly not.

[domer]

A comparative study of deaths and serious injury from lawful weapons (crimes or accidents) with deaths or serious injuries prevented by lawful possession of weapons (deterrence) is not available to my knowledge. That would be the start, I suggest, for a serious policy analysis. And I emphasize the word "policy," as in a set of practices that can be adjusted as the need requires. The constitutional protection for firearms, what there is of it, is nonetheless a fluid, not a rigid, concept, allowing the superseding principle of "reason" to largely trump any cries for unrestricted access, and the like. The claim that gun control cedes "freedom" is a cockamammy notion and dumb in the Age of Bush II, but especially when analyzed under the "rationality standard" implicit in all our law-making and jurisprudence.