Author Topic: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial  (Read 27803 times)

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Plane

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2007, 12:40:18 PM »
 I think that Gallileo is a good example of my point , but Bruno is an even better one and one that Gallileo would have known about.

The Church was defending the truth , as far as they knew.



In particular Bruno held firm to his belief in the plurality of worlds, although he was admonished to abandon it. His trial was overseen by the inquisitor, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, who demanded a full recantation, which Bruno eventually refused. Instead he appealed in vain to Pope Clement VIII, hoping to save his life through a partial recantation. The Pope expressed himself in favor of a guilty verdict. Consequently, Bruno was declared a heretic, handed over to secular authorities on February 8, 1600. At his trial he listened to the verdict on his knees, then stood up and said: "Perhaps you, my judges, pronounce this sentence against me with greater fear than I receive it." A month or so later he was brought to the Campo de' Fiori, a central Roman market square, his tongue in a gag, tied to a pole naked and burned at the stake, on February 17, 1600.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno



In 1612, opposition arose to the Sun-centered solar system which Galileo supported. In 1614, from the pulpit of Santa Maria Novella, Father Tommaso Caccini (1574–1648) denounced Galileo's opinions on the motion of the Earth, judging them dangerous and close to heresy. Galileo went to Rome to defend himself against these accusations, but, in 1616, Cardinal Roberto Bellarmino personally handed Galileo an admonition enjoining him neither to advocate nor teach Copernican astronomy.[2] In 1622, Galileo wrote his first book, The Assayer (Saggiatore), which was approved and published in 1623. In 1624, he developed the first known example of the microscope. In 1630, he returned to Rome to apply for a license to print the Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in Florence in 1632. In October of that year, however, he was ordered to appear before the Holy Office in Rome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei

Galileo made at least one major scientific error, in addition to opposing Kepler's hypothesis that the gravity of the moon is the origin of the tides. This was his view on the origin of the comets of 1618. He argued vehemently in The Assayer that they were an optical illusion, in opposition to the interpretation of the Jesuit Orazio Grassi that they were real, and quite distant from the Moon. His alienation of both Scheiner and Grazzi likely contributed to the hostile response of the Jesuit order to his publication of "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems" in 1632, and the inquisition that followed.




Cardinal Bellarmine had written in 1615 that the Copernican system could not be defended without "a true [physical] demonstration that the sun does not circle the earth but the earth circles the sun".[7] Galileo considered his theory of the tides to provide the required physical proof of the motion of the earth. This theory was so important to Galileo that he originally intended to entitle his Dialogue on the Two Chief World Systems the Dialogue on the Ebb and Flow of the Sea.[8] For Galileo, the tides were caused by the sloshing back and forth of water in the seas as a point on the Earth's surface speeded up and slowed down because of the Earth's rotation on its axis and revolution around the Sun. Galileo circulated his first account of the tides in 1616, addressed to Cardinal Orsini.[9]

If this theory were correct, there would be only one high tide per day. Galileo and his contemporaries were aware of this inadequacy because there are two daily high tides at Venice instead of one, about twelve hours apart. Galileo dismissed this anomaly as the result of several secondary causes, including the shape of the sea, its depth, and other factors.[10] Against the assertion that Galileo was deceptive in making these arguments, Albert Einstein expressed the opinion that Galileo developed his "fascinating arguments" and accepted them uncritically out of a desire for physical proof of the motion of the Earth.[11]

Galileo dismissed as a "useless fiction" the idea, held by his contemporary Johannes Kepler, that the moon caused the tides.[12] Galileo also refused to accept Kepler's elliptical orbits of the planets,[13] considering the circle the "perfect" shape for planetary orbits.


sirs

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2007, 12:45:53 PM »
Quote
Which means they can also choose not to, and instead choose simply to crimimalize language that someone(s) decide is simply hateful, MINUS public order disturbance.

But are you consistent here? You have no problem with people publishing tracts on how the Holocaust was fake. Fine.  How about publishing health reports on why adult sex with children has positive aspects in fighting cancer, complete with explicit pictures? Surely this would also fall under your "Freedom of Speech." And if the pictures are too much and violate the rights of others, then drawings would be OK, right?

You've moved smoothly from what I support have been referencing all this time, "freedom to speak your POV" to trying to sell one's POV with publications and pictures??  OK, let's play your new game.  No, I don't have a problem with the publishing tracts", as they can be ridiculed and shown to be the fraud that it is.  The 2nd effort of yours is simply an effort to evoke an emotional response.  Show me somewhere, anywhere that someone(s) are claiming sex with chidren can fight cancer.  That's neither political nor even controversial.  That's just perverse.  They'd have to have some damn impressive medical background and healthcare related support to pull that one off, as that's no longer someone simply expressing their POV.  And the riot it might cause would be aimed at them.  Care to try again?


There could be a film included, because we would not want the tyrannical governments of Europe to disturb the film industry with government approved "orthodox views." They can always use a boy and girl who are legally 18 and use modern technology to make them appear much younger.

Yea.....and.  Hollywood and the movie indiustry have their own gudelines.  It's a private industry, and requires the market to make them a success or not.  Let's see what kind of backlash such a movie gets.  Hasn't stopped egregiously distorted garbage like the docufictions Farenheit 911 or An Illicit Truth now has it


So, there should be no laws preventing this? It is not "hate speech" but it is a serious academic look into the possible positive health effects of pedophillia.   You're on board, right Sirs?

Correct
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Plane

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2007, 12:46:08 PM »
Quote
My "problem" is in your own response.  "states can choose to limit prosecutions to cases likely to disturb public order..."

First, to understand that you have to understand the European Union and how it functions. That will require a lot of time and I don't want to get into that unless you wish to sincerely discuss it.

Quote
Which means they can also choose not to, and instead choose simply to crimimalize language that someone(s) decide is simply hateful, MINUS public order disturbance.

But are you consistent here? You have no problem with people publishing tracts on how the Holocaust was fake. Fine.

How about publishing health reports on why adult sex with children has positive aspects in fighting cancer, complete with explicit pictures? Surely this would also fall under your "Freedom of Speech." And if the pictures are too much and violate the rights of others, then drawings would be OK, right?

There could be a film included, because we would not want the tyrannical governments of Europe to disturb the film industry with government approved "orthodox views." They can always use a boy and girl who are legally 18 and use modern technology to make them appear much younger.

So, there should be no laws preventing this? It is not "hate speech" but it is a serious academic look into the possible positive health effects of pedophillia.

You're on board, right Sirs?


If any actual harm to any actual child can be demonstrated , then the book should be thrown at them.
Otherwise I have tolarance for ideas I do not like.

There is a marginal case  discussed recently by Bill O'Riley in which a man was operateing a website that offered advice on how to get away with Pedophilla crime , but there was no evidence that  he had actually done this.

This guy defends the first admendment by abuseing it , he does us no favors , it is much like Clide Barrows efforts to defend the second admendment.

Plane

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2007, 12:49:25 PM »
Should the government have the right to limit Rosie O'Donnell speech about the 9-11 conspiracy?

She is not helping , one might assert that she is aiding an enemy.



_JS

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2007, 01:05:38 PM »
Quote
Show me somewhere, anywhere that someone(s) are claiming sex with chidren can fight cancer.  That's neither political nor even controversial.  That's just perverse.

No more perverse than saying the Holocaust never happened, in my opinion. It doesn't matter if the issue is perverse or not. It is a point of view (and no I'm not going to look it up, I'm a bit afraid of what might be out there to be honest).

Quote
And the riot it might cause would be aimed at them.

Perhaps, perhaps not. You can't prove there will be a riot.

Quote
It's a private industry, and requires the market to make them a success or not.  Let's see what kind of backlash such a movie gets.

I never mentioned Hollywood, you did (which is strange really). The adult movie industry is actually very succesful and the tactic I mentioned is used (and I saw that documented on a BBC program you perverts!).

So I never got a real sense of your consistency on this issue Sirs. You seemed more emotional than anything. I'm going to ask again.

A. You oppose any law that limits freedom of speech concerning hate speech and specifically Holocaust denial.

B. You oppose any law that limits freedom of speech concerning pedophillia and even using art to illustrate points of view on that subject.

Am I correct?
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_JS

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2007, 01:08:40 PM »
Plane, I still fail to see that you refuted anything I said about Galileo.

Quote
If any actual harm to any actual child can be demonstrated , then the book should be thrown at them.

Kind of like if a racist incites a riot that harms a minority population?


I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2007, 01:35:41 PM »
Quote
Show me somewhere, anywhere that someone(s) are claiming sex with chidren can fight cancer.  That's neither political nor even controversial.  That's just perverse.

No more perverse than saying the Holocaust never happened, in my opinion.

People say the former, not the latter.  So why bring up a strawman?


Quote
And the riot it might cause would be aimed at them.

Perhaps, perhaps not. You can't prove there will be a riot.

Which is the basis to my point.  Rhetoric designed and meant to instill a "disturbance" is not what I'm arguing about or suppotive of.  My issue is about the criminalizing of rhetoric simply because it sounds bad and supposedly includes hateful thoughts


I never mentioned Hollywood, you did (which is strange really). The adult movie industry is actually very succesful and the tactic I mentioned is used (and I saw that documented on a BBC program you perverts!).

Yea....and?  You haven't seen me claiming they should be prevented from distributing their garbage either.  If the ages get under 18, then there are laws on the books they do have to deal with


So I never got a real sense of your consistency on this issue Sirs.

Because you're purposely ignoring it, and instead trying to bring in 1 strawman after the other to deflect from the position, you've taken.  Your position of contining to support the notion of criminalizing offensive rhetoric simply because some body deems it hateful, is as clear as rain   


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2007, 01:55:32 PM »

Did you all read what the article says:

Quote
They will also have to criminalise “publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes” when such statements incite hatred or violence against minorities.

Tell me again why this is a problem for you? You realise of course that the Freedom of speech in the United States is conditional, correct?


Yes, I read what the article said:

Quote

Laws that make denying or trivialising the Holocaust a criminal offence punishable by jail sentences will be introduced across the European Union, according to a proposal expecting to win backing from ministers Thursday.

Offenders will face up to three years in jail under the proposed legislation, which will also apply to inciting violence against ethnic, religious or national groups.


An important word there being 'also'. If the goal to punish people for inciting hatred or violence against minorities, then why isn't the law just about that? Why the need to include language specific to denying the Holocaust? Obviously the point is to make denying the Holocaust a crime. Maybe you agree with that, but it does smell of thoughtcrime to me. Yes, people who deny the Holocaust are generally hateful morons who deserve a good, solid whack upside the head with a 2x4, but a law about what people can and cannot say regarding their personal beliefs certainly seems like only a step or so away from thoughtcrime laws. And while there are laws on the books here in America about inciting a riot and such, we also have precedent for allowing objectionable speech even if it seems hateful. The ACLU has more than once defended the free speech rights of American Nazis. As utterly repugnant and disgusting as I find the American Nazi rhetoric, I agree with the ACLU's decision. And the ACLU won those cases as I recall. While I disagree completely with Holocaust deniers, I believe they should also have their right to speak protected. Rights belong to everyone, not just to those who agree with us.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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sirs

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2007, 02:01:19 PM »
Prince.....you realize you're just trying to "project your American view" onto others, right?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 02:26:03 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2007, 02:19:41 PM »

Prince.....you realize you're just trying to "project you American view" onto others, right?


Heh. Possibly.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

_JS

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2007, 03:01:40 PM »
Sirs, I am making a hypothetical argument. It is not a "strawman."

But if you insist, we can do this a different way.

The Playbook for Kids about Sex: with brightly coloured pictures that showed all about homosexuality and how it was done for children as young as five.

The Milkman's on his Way: explicitly described homosexual intercourse and, indeed, glorified it, encouraging youngsters to believe that it was better than any other sexual way of life.

Now, you support these books being written for children?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2007, 03:23:23 PM »
Prince,

You provide a good synopsis of your case as usual. Yet, there is an aspect that I don't think you are considering which goes beyond the limitations of a simple argument over rights. It also goes beyond the simply mockery given by Sirs.

The truth is that your all's argument really is an American perspective. As much as we like to think how great we are (and let's be honest, as a nation we do tend to be rather chauvinistic) the truth is that the European theatre of World War II was primarily fought without us.

The tragedy and absolute horror of the Holocaust was a degredation of humanity with an efficiency not seen in modern times to that date. For Europeans, and especially those nations and peoples who were complicit in the Holocaust, it is a stain on their national conscience. It goes beyond Germany to the many nations that deported Jews, Roma, Slavs, and all those who met their end after reading the cruelly ironic "Arbeit Macht Frei" signs.

More than that, European people still have a strong sense of society. This is a very foreign concept to Americans. We have a very individualist philosophy. You won't find American newspapers and politicians and the public discussing the issue of slavery or the treatment of the Native Americans in a large national debate. Whereas you may find this in the UK or France when discussing past colonies. I'm not saying either view is right or wrong, just that we are more likely to say, "hey, I never owned a slave or hurt a Native American, so this has nothing to do with me." Whereas a European might be more likely to say, "we treated them like shite before, we cannot tell them to bugger off now!"

Lastly, please realise that Europe faces these problems today, just as they once did. The Yugoslav Wars were a horrifying reminder of that.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2007, 03:50:44 PM »
Plane, I still fail to see that you refuted anything I said about Galileo.

Quote
If any actual harm to any actual child can be demonstrated , then the book should be thrown at them.

Kind of like if a racist incites a riot that harms a minority population?





Sure, he should be punished as much as possible in purportion to the harm the riot causes.

Inciteing and leading a riot is a crime not protected by the first admendment.

sirs

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2007, 04:14:22 PM »
Inciteing and leading a riot is a crime not protected by the first admendment.

BINGO
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2007, 04:28:07 PM »

Lastly, please realize that Europe faces these problems today, just as they once did. The Yugoslav Wars were a horrifying reminder of that.



What Europe did about the Balkins is a demonstration of how they still need us to distract them from symbols and direct their attention to reality.


I can't believe that you think of the US involvement in the European Theater as peripheral and not critical.

Do you know what Eisenhower's responsibility was? Or his title during the war?