Author Topic: Faith and Science  (Read 6187 times)

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_JS

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Faith and Science
« on: April 24, 2007, 11:15:51 AM »
Building off of the creationist debate in Plane's thread, I am curious about some things as I am also a Christian.

1. Why does it matter if evolution is true?

2. Why does it matter if people are born with a sexual attraction towards the same gender (that obviously develops in later years)?

3. Does it matter to you that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter and John wrote 1, 2, and 3 John or is it acceptable that perhaps 2 Peter and 3 John were written by others?

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BT

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2007, 11:42:20 AM »
Quote
1. Why does it matter if evolution is true?

It doesn't to me.

Quote
2. Why does it matter if people are born with a sexual attraction towards the same gender (that obviously develops in later years)?

It doesn't to me. At the same time i don't see why the definition of marriage needs to change. Civil Union works for me.

Question 3 i have no idea what you are talking about.

hnumpah

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2007, 12:08:22 PM »
_JS:
Quote
3. Does it matter to you that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter and John wrote 1, 2, and 3 John or is it acceptable that perhaps 2 Peter and 3 John were written by others?
BT:
Quote
Question 3 i have no idea what you are talking about.


Probably refers to the debate among religious scholars as to the actual authorship of the books in question, based on differences in style, et cetera. Some folks believe that Peter himself actually wrote Peter 1 and 2, and that John himself actually wrote John 1, 2 and 3; others believe that disciples of these men actually wrote the books, either under their direction or, perhaps, even some time after they had died.
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modestyblase

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2007, 12:23:08 PM »
Building off of the creationist debate in Plane's thread, I am curious about some things as I am also a Christian.

1. Why does it matter if evolution is true?

2. Why does it matter if people are born with a sexual attraction towards the same gender (that obviously develops in later years)?

3. Does it matter to you that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter and John wrote 1, 2, and 3 John or is it acceptable that perhaps 2 Peter and 3 John were written by others?



1. Unless one is involved in science, or is a scholar, I suppose it doesn't, outside of the scope of the debate re: the public educaiton system. It speaks to the boredom of the world that the "creation debate is going global".

2. It doesn't. I don't care, anyway.

3. Biblical scholars do have interesting theories regarding this, though I've not enough knowledge to speak about it with any confidence.

_JS

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2007, 01:03:55 PM »
I guess I somewhat geared these questions more towards those who are also Christians, but as you all have answered I think anyone could answer them (except possibly the last one which wouldn't matter much to non-Christians).
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

domer

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2007, 01:14:32 PM »
The "truth" of evolution (though it's really a prevailing theory or paradigm, rightfully subject to good faith reexamination as any scientific theory is), to me, becomes a question of worldview (of philosophy or, most correctly, I suggest, epistemology: the study of knowledge). And the choice of a worldview and the method of approaching the world, to some significant degree, is utilitarian: what method yields the most useful information for us and provides the thought structure to actually use that knowledge?

There's nothing wrong with being gay either genetically or by choice or by environmental influences. In each case, to me, it's simply a fact of life.

Authorship of books of the Bible, despite traditional attribution, is unknown. As a general proposition going beyond that fact, the Bible is written by humans with divine inspiration being a matter, to me, of the "myth of the canon," or some equally appropriate designation. God, an elusive concept though reified in the Christian tradition, for example, specifically as to the writing of the Bible, let's say, may have been the product of the scribes' deep meditation, for example, opening a pathway of consciousness, for example, that began to approximate the notion people had in mind when speaking God's name.

hnumpah

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2007, 01:45:21 PM »
Quote
I guess I somewhat geared these questions more towards those who are also Christians...

Used to be one, was a deacon, planning to go to the seminary to become a minister. I grew out of it.

Quote
...I think anyone could answer them (except possibly the last one which wouldn't matter much to non-Christians).

In the April 9 issue of US News and World Report, there was an interesting article about America's 'religious illiteracy', "In America, An F In Religion", by Stephen Prothero. It mainly addresses Americans ignorance of religions other than their own - mainly Christianity - and how that leads to misunderstanding and mistrust of others. Unfortunately, many Americans are also ignorant of their own religion, and don't bother to do much more than show up in church once a week (if that) and repeat, as if by rote, whatever the church leaders tell them. Interpretations that disagree with their particular sect's dogma are generally ignored, along with aything else that does not support their church leaders' agenda. Events in the Bible are not presented in the context of the history of the time, and errors and inaccuracies are glossed over or ignored.

In reference to your question about evolution, I was once informed by a minister that it was all a farce - all the fossil evidence, the dating, all the astronomical observations that showed the universe was billions of years old, every bit of it, according to him, was all 'planted' evidence, put there by God to mislead and confuse the nonbelievers, because the Biblical account was absolutely accurate and all of creation was only a bit over 6,000 years old. My next question was how could he believe in a god that would, in effect, lie to his own people to cause them to doubt him, and thus go to hell? I never got an answer to that one. Some benevolent god he believed in.

The answer is, basically it doesn't matter, except to the folks who are intent on proving evolution is wrong to preserve their own view that the Biblical version is the absolute truth. They are obviously not historians, scientists, or mathematicians.

As for the sexual attraction question, again, that only matters to the folks who believe it is against their religion. My question to you is, what makes you think it 'obviously develops in later years'?
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_JS

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2007, 01:57:32 PM »
hnumpah, I think that part of that stems from some very anti-intellectual tendencies found in certain sects of Christianity. That is an interesting topic actually.

In recent years I have been astonished at what some Christians believe about Islam and Muslims. Much of it comes from a lack of knowledge.

Quote
My question to you is, what makes you think it 'obviously develops in later years'?

By that I meant around puberty, or at least when sexual feelings begin to be noticed by the individual.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

hnumpah

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2007, 02:21:29 PM »
Quote
By that I meant around puberty, or at least when sexual feelings begin to be noticed by the individual.

Then the question doesn't really make sense:

Quote
2. Why does it matter if people are born with a sexual attraction towards the same gender (that obviously develops in later years)?

Why would they have a sexual attraction towards anyone, same gender or not, before they even start having sexual feelings at all?
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

modestyblase

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2007, 02:53:46 PM »
I guess I somewhat geared these questions more towards those who are also Christians, but as you all have answered I think anyone could answer them (except possibly the last one which wouldn't matter much to non-Christians).

Ahhh, I disagree. I find myths highly entertaining, and appreciate biblical scholarship(most likely, more than any christian).

hnumpah, I think that part of that stems from some very anti-intellectual tendencies found in certain sects of Christianity. That is an interesting topic actually.

On a whole, most western religions demand unquestioning obedience. Certainly the Jewish faith allows questions, and encourage it, and they have demonstrated that courage throughout history; but even they will excommunicate anyone who pushes the envelope(Spinoza) too far. So then it becomes a matter of belief at the expense of reality and objective truth; and so I offer the following quotes, as the authors have far more confidence than I on this topic:

Ingersoll:
They say the religion of your fathers is good enough. Why should a father object to your inventing a better plow than he had? They say to me, do you know more than all the theologians dead? Being a perfectly modest man I say I think I do. Now we have come to the conclusion that every man has a right to think. Would God give a bird wings and make it a crime to fly? Would he give me brains and make it a crime to think? Any God that would damn one of his children for the expression of his honest thought wouldn't make a decent thief. When I read a book and don't believe it, I ought to say so. I will do so and take the consequences like a man.

I do not regard religious opinions or political opinions as exotics that have to be kept under glass, protected from the frosts of common sense or the tyrannous north wind of logic. Such plants are hardly worth preserving. They certainly ought to be hardy enough to stand the climate of free discussion, and if they cannot, the sooner they die the better.

Steve Allen:

The problem is that once the untrained mind has made a formal commitment to a religious philosophy -- and it does not matter whether that philosophy is generally reasonable and high-minded or utterly bizarre and irrational -- the powers of reason are suprisingly ineffective in changing the believer's mind.

...and no philosophy, sadly, has all the answers. No matter how assured
we may be about certain aspects of our belief, there are always painful
inconsistencies, exceptions, and contradictions. This is true in
religion as it is in politics, and is self-evident to all except
fanatics and the naive. As for the fanatics, whose number is legion in
our own time, we might be advised to leave them to heaven. They will
not, unfortunately, do us the same courtesy. They attack us and each
other, and whatever their protestations to peaceful intent, the bloody
record of history makes clear that they are easily disposed to resort to
the sword. My own belief in God, then, is just that -- a matter of
belief, not knowledge. My respect for Jesus Christ arises from the fact
that He seems to have been the most virtuous inhabitant of Planet Earth.
But even well-educated Christians are frustrated in their thirst for
certainty about the beloved figure of Jesus because of the undeniable
ambiguity of the scriptural record. Such ambiguity is not apparent to
children or fanatics, but every recognized Bible scholar is perfectly
aware of it. Some Christians, alas, resort to formal lying to obscure
such reality.

kimba1

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2007, 03:04:09 PM »
1. Why does it matter if evolution is true?
it matters as something to know ,like creation
we should not think of it emotionally no more than that.

2. Why does it matter if people are born with a sexual attraction towards the same gender (that obviously develops in later years)?
well attraction in general develops in later years.
and what matter is how we deal with it.
why do we treat sterile people better than gay people?
gay people are way more productive in society than hetero.


3. Does it matter to you that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter and John wrote 1, 2, and 3 John or is it acceptable that perhaps 2 Peter and 3 John were written by others?

kimba1

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2007, 03:26:00 PM »
oops
push the button too soon
i got no idea how to answer 3
but that`s no biggie
I learned will visiting west virginia alot of christians don`t read the bible at all.
they get all their info straight from the pastor only.
reading the bible is not required to alot of christians.

Amianthus

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2007, 03:29:05 PM »
gay people are way more productive in society than hetero.

Depends on your definition of "productive."
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

hnumpah

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2007, 05:05:32 PM »
From the USN&WR website:

Q&A: What Americans Don't Know About Religion Could Fill a Book
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070308/8prothero.htm

I couldn't find the article I was looking for; apparently it hasn't been archived yet. This one gives some of the same information, though.
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kimba1

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2007, 05:43:36 PM »
Depends on your definition of "productive.">

most are more likely have jobs and pay their taxes and involved with their community.

gays are generally fiscal conservatives.
ex. log cabin republicans
one of the cleanest and most thriving community in san francisco is the castro.