Where Kurdistan Meets the Red Zone Part II

[fatman]

Sorry BT, didn't see your post in there.

I don't believe any type of terrorism should be tolerated. Period.
Great.  When can we expect something to be done about oil companies making record profits while gas climbs to $4 a gallon and beyond.  Doesnt that qualify as economic terrorism?  Who gets to decide what constitutes terrorism?  And who gets to decide where, when, and how we enforce it?  This thing can very easily evolve into something else, and that's what I'm worried about.

And if we aren't going to tolerate it, who will enforce that zero tolerance?
See my above queries.

Perhaps we should concentrate more on payback than prevention, because prevention seems to get folks all wobbley.
Why is it that everyone wants to pick and choose what rights to preserve and what rights are expendable?  It would make sense for me not to let Ted Kennedy drive cars with female campaign volunteers inside, but why stop him from a flight?  I'm sorry BT, but I don't think it's okay to have secret searches and all that other garbage at the expense of my rights or yours (no disrespect intended).  Any of them.  When people want to know how effective these secret searches/warrants/arrests/trials are, they can't find out because if they were told the info might get out.  Sounds like a self-producing cycle to me.

How about the rule of ten. For every one hostage you kill, we kill 10 of your family.
That would work great for 1940 Nazi Germany, killing villagers and priests, but not today, unless you really want the comparison to Nazi Germans.  Further, being as how most of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia and we haven't invaded them, I would think it'd be a little late for this one.  Do you really want to line up the Cho family before a firing squad?

That work?
No.  See above response.

No intrusive government prying into your private affairs.
How the hell would I know?  It's not like the govt is going to tell me.

Just punishment, swift and sure.
Swift, like 5+ years at Gitmo without a trial?  Swift, as in how swiftly we've managed to put Iraq back together?  Or are we talking swift as in Texas style capital punishment?  As for the sure part, Osama is still cave hopping, Iraq is still falling apart, and there are terrorist organizations (foreign and domestic) still recruiting, and probably having less trouble doing so than the US Armed Forces.

[fatman]

I did.  It culminated with 911.  we're simply fighting them in Iraq currently

And militant Islam has shrunk since 9/11 right?  Hell, it's as thick as hookers on a logger's payday in the middle east now.

As I said, it's readily seen, even here in the saloon, everytime you read how evil Bush's last action is supposed to have been, thus necessistating an ends justy the means tactic because, well.....he's evil, you have to do anything and everything to stop evil

And this I disagree with.  I don't think Bush is evil, or stupid.  I do think he is incompetent.  I believe his intentions are there, but that his methods are wrong.  And point taken about the conservatives knowing he isn't a "real" conservative.  His dad should have been clue #1 there.

[BT]

Great.  When can we expect something to be done about oil companies making record profits while gas climbs to $4 a gallon and beyond.

What the heck does that have to do with terrorism? Oil companies sell their goods at prices the markets will bear. You don't want to buy oil, use an alternative fuel. And since when are low oil prices an American Right? Fact is the sooner we get used to high gas prices the sooner we can quit interfacing with the Middle East.

Because isn't that what this is all about. Our infidel troops being stationed in Saudi Arabia and our support for the Israeli's ?

[fatman]

What the heck does that have to do with terrorism? Oil companies sell their goods at prices the markets will bear. You don't want to buy oil, use an alternative fuel. And since when are low oil prices an American Right? Fact is the sooner we get used to high gas prices the sooner we can quit interfacing with the Middle East.

Point taken BT.  I've advocated for a long time and on this forum for an alternative energy source, in order that we could avoid an economic stranglehold.  Market forces can bear high oil prices because we HAVE to have oil, unless you want to go back to washboards and horses (wouldn't bother me personally).  It just sucks for Joe Schmoe making $11 an hour and seeing the price for gasoline go from $2 to $4 in six months, especially if he lives in a rural area with no alternative or mass transit.

[Plane]

Are we as a nation going to be like the man who tears his house down to find the mouse that is eating his cheese?

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If a poisonous snake were biteing my family and hideing in the walls,I would demolish walls untill I had exposed it even to the point hat the house was uninhabitable then when the snake was killed I could repair the damage. If the snakes kills a child the damage is not repairable .

Mice are a less urgent problem so I could use less drastic means for evicting the mice.I coul afford enough cheese to replace a mouses diet.


Are that Al Quieda , Abu Nidal , Hezbolla orginisations a small mouselike problem?

[BT]

It just sucks for Joe Schmoe making $11 an hour and seeing the price for gasoline go from $2 to $4 in six months, especially if he lives in a rural area with no alternative or mass transit.

There are always alternatives. I work from home and telecommute if necessary for 85% of my work. Granted, it depends on the job, but i designed my business around flexible hours and minimum commute. 

[Plane]

I did.  It culminated with 911.  we're simply fighting them in Iraq currently

And militant Islam has shrunk since 9/11 right?  Hell, it's as thick as hookers on a logger's payday in the middle east now.

As I said, it's readily seen, even here in the saloon, everytime you read how evil Bush's last action is supposed to have been, thus necessistating an ends justy the means tactic because, well.....he's evil, you have to do anything and everything to stop evil

And this I disagree with.  I don't think Bush is evil, or stupid.  I do think he is incompetent.  I believe his intentions are there, but that his methods are wrong.  And point taken about the conservatives knowing he isn't a "real" conservative.  His dad should have been clue #1 there.

If I understand you correctly , you are aginst running a tighter ship here and also against carrying the fight tothem near their own homes.

?

What kind of competance could preserve a totall open society and also be entirely defensive?


Bush  really  never was a conservative , but our system gives a middle of the roader like him a lot of advantage , did you notice Kerry and Clinton attempting to portray themselves as centists?

But I can't see why you would call him incompetent , he ha been very effctive in quashing Al Quada enough to prevent a repeat of 9-11 to this point and his economic policys are an amazeing success.

The only thing he has shown no competence in is restricting the freedom of criticism , and I don't care to have competence there.

[sirs]

I did.  It culminated with 911.  we're simply fighting them in Iraq currently

And militant Islam has shrunk since 9/11 right?  Hell, it's as thick as hookers on a logger's payday in the middle east now.

With all due respect, I disagree.  Their attacks are much less organized, and far more desperate IMHO.  Their communications and command structure had been completely dismantled, and only recently have been showing some form of restructure, but nothing like their status at the time of 911.  And most importantly, those attacks are not taking place here

As I said, it's readily seen, even here in the saloon, everytime you read how evil Bush's last action is supposed to have been, thus necessistating an ends justy the means tactic because, well.....he's evil, you have to do anything and everything to stop evil

And this I disagree with.  I don't think Bush is evil, or stupid.  I do think he is incompetent.  I believe his intentions are there, but that his methods are wrong

And you're not a member of the demographics I was referring to.
 

And point taken about the conservatives knowing he isn't a "real" conservative.  His dad should have been clue #1 there.

Precisely.  And his tenure in office as Texas Governor was another clear clue on that one as well

[Universe Prince]

I don't believe any type of terrorism should be tolerated. Period.

[...]

How about the rule of ten. For every one hostage you kill, we kill 10 of your family.

Terrorism being the use of violence and threats of violence with the intent to intimidate and/or coerce by fear, wouldn't your 'rule of ten' be terrorism?

[Universe Prince]

When can we expect something to be done about oil companies making record profits while gas climbs to $4 a gallon and beyond.  Doesnt that qualify as economic terrorism?

No.

[BT]

Terrorism being the use of violence and threats of violence with the intent to intimidate and/or coerce by fear, wouldn't your 'rule of ten' be terrorism?

Is the court system terrorism?

[Universe Prince]

Is the court system terrorism?

I don't think so. But then the court system isn't about using violence to coerce people by fear. And generally in this country it doesn't use or involve rules like "kill one hostage, we'll kill ten of your family". So I'd have to answer no.

[The_Professor]

We started this. We brought Saddam down. We disbanded the Iraqi Army, so that there was no central authority other than our own. This was done deliberately. Now we are pulling out, blaming the Iraqis for their problems. If this were part of a new policy of minding our own business, restoring the Republic and allowing the world to take care of itself, it might be comprehensible, but it is not: the very people who wanted to intervene in Bosnia, who put our troops into Somalia and then did not support them and eventually ran (telling Bin Laden what he had suspected all along) will be in charge of this withdrawal and of the army they bring home. They are still interventionists albeit rather stingy and politically sensitive interventionists. They are still the people who ask, seriously, what is the good of this splendid army if you can't use it to go Do Good all over the world.

Bush meant well, but history will never forgive him for starting a war with no idea of what to do next. This was compounded by sending in an incompetent proconsul (who subsequently got the Medal of Freedom).

And Republicans and Democrats are now playing political games. Both seem to consider the soldiers as pawns.

It is enough to make you want to throw up!

[BT]

I don't think so. But then the court system isn't about using violence to coerce people by fear. And generally in this country it doesn't use or involve rules like "kill one hostage, we'll kill ten of your family". So I'd have to answer no.

The death penalty isn't violence? Prison rape isn't violence? Fear of both keep people people in line.

You might argue proportionality, but the fact remains that if our emphasis was on punishment, fair or otherwise, instead of prevention, a lot of the blame for encroachment of rights wouldn't rest upon post 9-11 actions.

[Amianthus]

The death penalty isn't violence? Prison rape isn't violence? Fear of both keep people people in line.

Yeah, but our legal system doesn't tell Joe that we'll lock up or kill his mother if he kills someone else. We only hold the person committing the crime responsible, not their family.