Author Topic: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals  (Read 15621 times)

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Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« on: May 03, 2007, 02:32:39 PM »
 

   
 
 
Military report shows ethics of troops in Iraq

Expert says findings reflect stress of war

By Rick Rogers
STAFF WRITER

May 3, 2007


Conference takes on combat stress
Only 40 percent of Marines would report a member of their unit for killing or wounding an innocent civilian, according to the military's first report on the ethics of U.S. troops in Iraq.
One-third of the Marines surveyed would turn in someone for stealing, and 30 percent would report a unit member for unnecessarily destroying property.


New York Times News Service
Combat veterans said the ethics report accurately portrays troop behavior in Iraq, where some service members said unit loyalty can overpower the obligation to report wrongdoing.
The figures for the Army were roughly 15 percent higher in those three categories, but even those were described by the report's authors as in clear need of improvement.
“People are going to be surprised and disturbed by this, and then they are going to understand that this is war,” said John Pike, director of the military think tank GlobalSecurity.org.

The San Diego Union-Tribune obtained a copy of the 30-page report from an anonymous source and asked Pike to comment on it. The Pentagon had not authorized the release of the document, which was prepared by the Army's Mental Health Advisory Team and sent to the commandant of the Marine Corps on April 18. The military is using the report to prioritize training and other needs.

“Troops are sent to fight for their country, but when they get to the battlefield, they are fighting for their buddies,” Pike said. “I suspect that combat in Iraq is more stressful than is understood. This list of behaviors shows classic symptoms of combat stress.”

The report indeed showed that longer deployments and multiple tours of duty were increasing troops' rates of marital and mental-health problems, including post traumatic stress disorder. An even bigger factor was each service member's exposure to combat: More fighting typically led to a greater likelihood of mental difficulties.

Strong leadership by enlisted officers, such as sergeants and staff sergeants, greatly reduced a unit's psychological strain – and vice versa, the report's authors concluded. They recommended more aggressive and consistent training in ethics and leadership skills for these officers, as well as chaplains and mental-health professionals working in war zones.

The document was based on focus groups and surveys of 1,320 soldiers and 447 Marines from August to October. The service members' responses were kept anonymous because the interviewers wanted to get the most honest answers possible.

Combat veterans said the report accurately portrays troop behavior in Iraq, which they depicted as a frustrating and soul-sapping place where the enemy seems to lurk everywhere.

“When you deal with a loss in a unit, you have to fight the anger and feeling of inhumanity you feel toward the people,” said Patrick Alvarez of Chula Vista, a staff sergeant in the California National Guard. His unit lost a soldier during a convoy attack about three years ago in Baghdad.

“When something like that happens, you start to lose the desire to do what is right,” said Alvarez, who received the Bronze Star for valor. “I know of it first-hand. I was looking at 10-year-olds and under the right circumstances, I would have wasted those kids in a heartbeat.”


JOHN GIBBINS / Union-Tribune
California National Guard Staff Sgt. Patrick Alvarez of Chula Vista, who was awarded the Bronze Star for valor, says strong military leadership will help keep troops in line while reducing stress levels.
Then he added: “An innocent civilian? I don't think I ever met one over there.”
Some military personnel said a unit's sense of loyalty and camaraderie can overpower the obligation to report wrongdoing, especially when its members have banded together to survive in combat.

“You are protecting their lives and they are protecting your life,” said Rey Uy, a retired Marine staff sergeant who lives in Chula Vista.

Urban combat can cause intense frustration, he said.

“You don't know who your enemy is. You don't know if it is the 10-year-old with the cell phone or the old man sitting on the corner watching you,” said Uy, who served with the 3rd Battalion, 11th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division at Camp Pendleton. “You can't find them, yet every day you have a Humvee blown up and people hurt or killed. And then back at base camp you are getting rocketed and mortared.”

The more brutal the war and the longer that troops are exposed to it, the more difficult it is for them to follow the military's rules of engagement, said Jean Bethke Elshtain, a professor of social and political ethics at the University of Chicago.

But not all service branches react the same way to combat stress, said Kateri Carmola, who teaches political science and war ethics at Middlebury College in Vermont.


JOHN GIBBINS / Union-Tribune
“You don't know who your enemy is. You don't know if it is the 10-year-old with the cell phone or the old man sitting on the corner watching you,” said Rey Uy, a retired Marine staff sergeant.
The Army has emphasized battlefield ethics training since the Vietnam War, she said, while the Navy and Marine Corps have concentrated on internal ethics since the early 1990s.
What Carmola, Elshtain, Pike and the combat veterans all agreed on was that strong, competent leadership can address nearly every ethical problem in the war zone.

A firm hand will keep troops in line while reducing stress levels, Alvarez and Uy said. The ethics report showed that units with enlisted officers who were highly rated had less than half the rates of post traumatic stress disorder, anxiety and depression compared with those that had poorly rated leaders.

“One time, we captured two insurgents with rocket-propelled grenades and improvised explosive devices. . . . A few weeks earlier, we had taken a loss from an IED,” Alvarez said. “So we have these guys and we are law. We know that if we turn them in, there is a good chance they'll be out of jail in a few weeks. Do you kill them? No, because it is wrong. Leadership calls right from wrong. Leadership was the answer. Leadership is the answer.”

Among the report's other findings:

The length of combat exposure is the main factor influencing a service member's mental health.

Ten percent of respondents said they had mistreated an Iraqi. The number was an average of all responses for behaviors such as assaulting a noncombatant and unnecessarily damaging an Iraqi's property.

Troops diagnosed with mental-health problems were much more likely to engage in unethical behavior on the battlefield than those with no psychological ills.

Only 42 percent of soldiers who screened positive for a mental-health problem went on to seek help from a chaplain, primary-care doctor or behavioral specialist. That's because the Army's mental-health treatment system is largely voluntary.

Nearly 66 percent of respondents personally knew a service member who was killed in combat in Iraq.

Besides seeking greater leadership and more psychological training for various military personnel, the Mental Health Advisory Team recommended that the Pentagon create a joint system for all service branches to monitor and report mental-health needs. It also encouraged commanders to establish a training program devoted solely to battlefield ethics for soldiers and Marines.

At the end of its list, the team suggested that the Pentagon extend the interval between deployments to 18 to 36 months so troops could mentally “reset.” In contrast, the Army recently lengthened its standard tour of duty to 15 months, with at least a year of rest between each deployment. The length of a standard Marine deployment is still seven months.

Yesterday, a spokesman at Marine Corps headquarters characterized the report as “one instructive item in a series.”

Lt. Col. Scott Fazekas said the Corps understands “it represents an honest and faithful attempt to capture what frontline Marines are experiencing and we will continue to examine the study and its recommendations closely.”


Rick Rogers: (760) 476-8212; rick.rogers@uniontrib.com
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Amianthus

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2007, 02:44:49 PM »
And here, "proof positive" is otherwise known as "rampant speculation."
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2007, 03:55:41 PM »
<<And here, "proof positive" is otherwise known as "rampant speculation.">>

Naturally.  That's because polls are only "proof positive" when they prove positive for the U.S.   Polls showing, for example, how Iraqis love the U.S. and are deliriously grateful for all the benefits the invasion has brought them, those are definitely proof positive.  Anything else, particuarly polls showing (God forbid!) the criminal mentality of the typical U.S. soldier - - now THOSE are "rampant speculation" par excellence!

Amianthus

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2007, 04:55:16 PM »
Naturally.  That's because polls are only "proof positive" when they prove positive for the U.S.   Polls showing, for example, how Iraqis love the U.S. and are deliriously grateful for all the benefits the invasion has brought them, those are definitely proof positive.  Anything else, particuarly polls showing (God forbid!) the criminal mentality of the typical U.S. soldier - - now THOSE are "rampant speculation" par excellence!

These aren't polls. Did you bother to read the article? According to the study, only 10% had "mistreated" an Iraqi. Hardly "wreaks (sic) with criminals" - especially when "mistreating" could be nothing more than cutting in front of a queue or something like that. The article doesn't specify what the criteria for "mistreating an Iraqi" involved.

Whereas the polls mentioned in another thread showed approximately 70% of Iraqis in Iraq saying that they were better off without Saddam in charge.

I can see where you're confused. 10% is so close to 70%.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2007, 10:54:51 PM »
<<These aren't polls. Did you bother to read the article? >>

Of course they're polls.  Where would they get info like that except by polling a selected sample of troops?

<<According to the study, only 10% had "mistreated" an Iraqi. >>

ONLY 10%??  10% is all it takes.  It's a pretty big percentage in and of itself.  Were 10% of your high-school class criminals?  Are 10% of your friends sex perverts and child molesters?  What percentage of German concentration camp guards do you think abused prisoners?  100%?  50%?  20%?  Nobody remembers the percentage because it don't mean shit.  What everyone remembers are the crimes and atrocities that were done by the Army as a whole.

<<Hardly "wreaks (sic) with criminals">>

That's because your standards are pathetically low.

<< . . .  especially when "mistreating" could be nothing more than cutting in front of a queue or something like that. >>

Oh yeah, that's exactly what the poll was all about - - cutting in queues.  THAT'S what the public wants to know about, how many times prisoners were cut in on in queues.  Very realistic.

<<The article doesn't specify what the criteria for "mistreating an Iraqi" involved.>>

And we all know how complete these articles are.  Quote the whole fucking survey verbatim, top to bottom.  Methodology included.  That's why nobody buys the surveys any more, they just clip the reports right out of the morning newspaper.  I'm sure if you got the methodology page of the survey and looked up the survey definition of "abuse," cutting in queue would be right at the top of the list of definitions, followed closely by "snapping one's gum rudely."  Good assumption there, Ami.  Let us know when you'r. about to re-enter the world of reality next time.  We'll try to show you a little more of the planet


<<Whereas the polls mentioned in another thread showed approximately 70% of Iraqis in Iraq saying that they were better off without Saddam in charge.>>

Which of course has absolutely NOTHING to do with the subject of Knute's post, being the criminality of the U.S. forces.

<<I can see where you're confused. 10% is so close to 70%.>>

You should save the sarcasm till you at least understand what is at stake in the discussion.  (Hint: it had nothing to do with American popularity.)

Amianthus

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2007, 11:05:05 PM »
Oh yeah, that's exactly what the poll was all about - - cutting in queues.  THAT'S what the public wants to know about, how many times prisoners were cut in on in queues.  Very realistic.

So, what was the definition of "mistreating" in this study? Your sarcasm seems to indicate that you know.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2007, 11:11:17 PM »
>>Which of course has absolutely NOTHING to do with the subject of Knute's post, being the criminality of the U.S. forces.<<


These RW nutcases never address the real issue, either because they are too stupid to get the point our too dishonest to address the point or both. The fact that 10% CLAIM to have mistreated an Iraqi is probly not even true( who would be so stupid as to admit this to anyone) and is certainly not germane  because 30% admit they wouldnt even report it anyway.

Michael Tee

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2007, 11:15:08 PM »
<<So, what was the definition of "mistreating" in this study? Your sarcasm seems to indicate that you know.>>

Why would I know?  I don't know EVERYTHING.

I assume, as any intelligent and informed reader of the news would,  that in a poll published in a mainstream venue, there'd be at least a veneer of academic propriety and responsibility and the methodology page in a survey aimed at troop abuse of prisoners against a backdrop of the current war in Iraq would be serious enough to exclude trivial instances of abuse (such as your ridiculous example) and concentrate on definitions of abuse that coincide with what the average consumer of that news would himself or herself consider abuse.  That's how the world works (not that YOU would be expected to know that.)

Doesn't that make infinitely more sense than assuming, as you seem to have, that a survey on abuse run by TODAY would be based on a definition of abuse that includes cutting in queues?  Why would ANY MSM venue expose itself to public ridicule and reputation loss by running such a transparently flawed survey?  And if it did, would not the right-wing blogosphere by now be inflamed with outrage and ridicule over a gaffe like that?

Amianthus

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2007, 11:20:00 PM »
I assume, as any intelligent and informed reader of the news would,  that in a poll published in a mainstream venue, there'd be at least a veneer of academic propriety and responsibility and the methodology page in a survey aimed at troop abuse of prisoners against a backdrop of the current war in Iraq would be serious enough to exclude trivial instances of abuse (such as your ridiculous example) and concentrate on definitions of abuse that coincide with what the average consumer of that news would himself or herself consider abuse.  That's how the world works (not that YOU would be expected to know that.)

And I've already posted historical examples of just such fakery published in mainstream venues.

It's where "memory" comes in.

Besides, anything Knutty posts is high on the "suspicious" list, because most of his posts are demonstrable lies (well, those where he claims that they are fact - most of his posts are actually nothing more than pure insult).
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2007, 11:28:23 PM »
<<And I've already posted historical examples of just such fakery published in mainstream venues.>>

Once again missing the point completely.  The issue is not "fakery" in the MSM.  The issue is TRANSPARENT fakery, a poll on troop abuse of prisoners featuring "cutting in queue" or something equally as trivial as one of the forms of abuse surveyed.

Show me ONE historical example of such a transparent fake (a) being published and (b) not igniting a shitstorm in the right-wing blogosphere.

<<and that deafening silence you hear, folks, is as close as Ami will ever come to conceding the point.>>

Amianthus

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2007, 11:47:19 PM »
Show me ONE historical example of such a transparent fake (a) being published and (b) not igniting a shitstorm in the right-wing blogosphere.

Quote
The basics of the story are known to almost everyone: A miraculous survivor, an infant boy tagged 'baby 81' by the hospital that received him, was pursued by nine sets of parents. The dispute was resolved only last week when a court ordered DNA test established a young Sri Lankan couple as the infant's parents.

None of it, beyond the fact that the infant survived and has, at last, been reunited with his parents, is true, according to the LBO, which calls the New York Times journalist, Somini Sengupta -- and others who followed her intitial (sic) story - "journalists of the type of Jason Blair, the New York Times reporter who made up sensational stories and eventually was forced out of his job in 2003."
More at http://www.apfn.net/Messageboard/02-23-05/discussion.cgi.78.html

I don't remember the "shitstorm" from the "right-wing blogosphere" about this one. Perhaps you can point out a list of right-wing blogs that generated a "shitstorm" over this story?

<<and that deafening silence you hear, folks, is as close as Ami will ever come to conceding the point.>>

I always support my claims. You can't say the same.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2007, 01:19:20 AM »
OUCH, Ami with another massive body blow      ;)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2007, 02:20:09 AM »
OUCH, Ami with another massive body blow      ;)

Maybe you two ( or one) should take this self-love to a motel room & spare the rest of US all this sloppy shit.

sirs

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2007, 02:27:50 AM »
Maybe you two ( or one) should take this self-love to a motel room & spare the rest of US all this sloppy shit.

How ironic, coming from the king of crap     :P
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 03:12:58 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Proof positive that the USMC wreaks with criminals
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2007, 02:55:10 AM »
Does 30% not being willing to turn in their brother Marine mean that 70% would be?


This seems rather high ,especialy since this is the same generation as the Hip Hop croud that is 0% willing to turn in a brother rapper.


I think that either this poll is optomistic or elese Marines are more willig to inform on each other than the general population .


Stats without a baseline mean little.