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Lanya

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Editorial demands grow for pullout
« on: May 07, 2007, 03:51:08 PM »


Editorial Demands Grow for U.S. Pullout of Iraq


By E&P Staff

Published: May 06, 2007 10:30 PM ET

NEW YORK The editorial pages of many American newspapers have long been harshly critical of the conduct of the war in Iraq, but very few major papers have ever called for a U.S. withdrawal any time soon. The Washington Post has strongly opposed the idea, while The New York Times has started moving in the pullout direction. But the Los Angeles Times -- which had backed the "surge" -- took the strongest stand yet on Sunday, in an editorial titled simply, "Bring Them Home."

Meanwhile, on the other side of the country, in a conservative state, the Roanoke (Va.) Times also called for a pullout, explaining that it, too, was reversing course on its support for the war.

The L.A. Times observed, "This newspaper reluctantly endorsed the U.S. troop surge as the last, best hope for stabilizing conditions so that the elected Iraqi government could assume full responsibility for its affairs. But we also warned that the troops should not be used to referee a civil war. That, regrettably, is what has happened."

It concluded that "the longer we delay planning for the inevitable, the worse the outcome is likely to be. The time has come to leave."

The Roanoke paper stated, "Though President Bush seems psychologically incapable of the act, it is time for everyone else in the United States to recognize the inevitable: The occupation of Iraq is an utter, irredeemable failure. We cannot win there militarily or politically.

"Further expenditure of blood, lives, and treasure will gain the United States nothing. Nor will it gain anything for the Iraqi people, who have seen only chaos and bloodshed from this intervention."

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette declared on Thursday, "All Congress needs to do is show some courage and stand up to President Bush. Its ultimate service to our forces would be to see that no more of them lose their lives in a pointless war -- a great service indeed."

The Sun of Baltimore, which had already back a pullout, now advises that "since the Iraqi parliament plans to take July and August off, Congress could suggest to the president that American troops do the same. It would be a start, at least."

At the Portland (Maine) Press Herald on Sunday, editorial page editor John W. Porter explained the paper's recent change of heart on the war (it now backs withdrawal) this way: A major in the Army reserve had made the observation, in chatting with a reporter for the paper, "Every day is Groundhog Day." This, of course, refers to the movie, "Groundhog Day," in which Bill Murray wakes each morning to find himself stuck in the same day.

"Groundhog Day," Porter wrote, referring to Iraq. "One day indistinguishable from the next. No change. No progress. Just the grind of it."

An excerpt from the L.A. Times editorial, available at www.latimes.com, follows.
*

Whatever the future holds, the United States has not "lost" and cannot "lose" Iraq. It was never ours in the first place. And however history will judge the war, some key U.S. goals have been accomplished: Saddam Hussein has been ousted, tried and executed; Iraqis have held three elections, adopted a constitution and established a rudimentary democracy.

But what now? After four years of war, more than $350 billion spent and 3,363 U.S. soldiers killed and 24,310 wounded, it seems increasingly obvious that an Iraqi political settlement cannot be achieved in the shadow of an indefinite foreign occupation. The U.S. military presence — opposed by more than three-quarters of Iraqis — inflames terrorism and delays what should be the primary and most pressing goal: meaningful reconciliation among the Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds.

This newspaper reluctantly endorsed the U.S. troop surge as the last, best hope for stabilizing conditions so that the elected Iraqi government could assume full responsibility for its affairs. But we also warned that the troops should not be used to referee a civil war. That, regrettably, is what has happened.

The mire deepens against a backdrop of domestic U.S. politics in which support for the ill-defined mission wanes by the week. Better to begin planning a careful, strategic withdrawal from Iraq now, based on the strategies laid out by the Iraq Study Group, than allow for the 2008 campaign season to create a precipitous pullout.

With four out of five additional battalions now in place, there is no reason to believe that the surge will help bring about an end to what is, in fact, a multifaceted civil war. The only bright spot is in Al Anbar province, where Sunni tribal leaders have joined U.S. forces in the fight against foreign Al Qaeda fighters. They deserve our continuing support. But as long as civil war rages in Iraq, even the post-surge force of 160,000 troops cannot achieve more than marginal progress....

But an important element needs to be taken off the table: American blood. The U.S. should immediately declare its intention to begin a gradual troop drawdown, starting no later than the fall. The pace of the withdrawal must be flexible, to reflect progress or requests by the Iraqis and the military's commanders. The precise date for completing the withdrawal need not be announced, but the assumption should be that combat troops would depart by the end of 2009. Iraqi political compromise is more likely to come when Washington is no longer backing the stronger (Shiite) party. U.S. troops could then be repositioned to better wage the long-term struggle against Islamic extremism.

We are not naive. U.S. withdrawal, whether concluded next year or five years from now, entails grave risks. But so does U.S. occupation. The question is how best to manage the risks.

First, there is the grim prospect of a bloodbath in Iraq. But the best way to forestall slaughter is political reconciliation, not military occupation. Second is the worry that Al Qaeda will establish a beachhead in Al Anbar. Yet Iraqis have already turned against the foreign fighters. Third, the neighbors may meddle. Alarmists fear an Iranian proxy state in Baghdad; southern Iraq is already allied with Tehran. But Iraq's neighbors are more likely to be helpful once withdrawal is assured, and instability is not in their interests, especially without a U.S. occupier to bleed.

Having invested so much in Iraq, Americans are likely to find disengagement almost as painful as war. But the longer we delay planning for the inevitable, the worse the outcome is likely to be. The time has come to leave.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003581463
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Plane

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2007, 03:54:22 PM »
What is the reason that the loss is inevitable?

sirs

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2007, 09:53:31 PM »
Funny thing, I'm for a pull-out as well......WHEN it's damn well appropriate. 

Did any one catch wind of the recent video of Usama's #2 guy specifically referencing the U.S. Congress's claims that the war is lost?  Music to the ears of every radical Islamic militant.  Thank you very much Senator Reid and Miss Pelosi.  I'm sure our soldiers are so appreciative of putting fresh new wind in the sails of the terrorists, emboldening their actions.  Yea, you guys really support those troops of ours, doncha       >:(
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2007, 10:53:03 PM »
Looks like one more sign.  The writing's on the wall. 

Why is it inevitable?  Call it the tide of history.  The Turks lost them.  The British lost them.  The Americans will lose them.  If nobody else noticed, the age of empires is closing.  When I was in elementary school, the maps on the schoolroom walls were pink everywhere, indicating the British Empire and its holdings.  By the time I finished grad school, the pink had shrunk to nothing.  Many factors lead to the difficulty of maintaining an empire: better communications means that the people of the imperial power get to see exactly how much brutality "their" troops have to exert in order to suppress the "natives;" the natives themselves are better educated due to the spread of ideas through radio tv and mass media; power in the form of knowledge filters down to the people (classic examples, 19 guys with box-cutters bring down the WTC; 1 kid planting a shaped plastic explosive can take out a half-dozen heavily-armed troops.)  The cost of technology escalates, the reluctance of the imperial power's people to die for phony ideals requires an ever-increasing investment in high-tech weaponry, so the cost per dead resistance fighter escalates to a point where the imperial power, be it the wealthiest nation on earth, is sucked into spending what it can't afford indefinitely while the low-tech opponent sacrifices little more than human life, which in those parts of the world is cheaper than dirt.

Is Pelosi putting wind in the sails of the Iraqi Resistance?  Bullcrap.  These guys fought on when the U.S. was much more behind the war effort than it is now.  They're not in a popularity contest.  They fully expect to die and they're ready for it.  They don't give a shit if the struggle lasts five more, ten more, twenty more years - - they LIVE there, they have no place else to go.  Whereas the Americans can always pack up and go home.  As they always do, sooner or later.  The Resistance doesn't need Nancy Peolsi to tell them such things.  They KNOW what time it is.  They're fighting for their own homes, their own land.  They don't stop and start and stop again because of anything that Nancy Pelosi says.

sirs

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2007, 11:03:57 PM »
Is Pelosi putting wind in the sails of the Iraqi Resistance?  Bullcrap. 

LOL....yea broadcasting to the enemy that "we've lost" is so non-supportive to Islamic terrorists and their goals.  Yea, gives all our soldiers such a tingly feeling of support, don't it
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2007, 11:08:11 PM »
<<LOL....yea broadcasting to the enemy that "we've lost" is so non-supportive to Islamic terrorists and their goals.  Yea, gives all our soldiers such a tingly feeling of support, don't it>>

I guess then you've got some evidence that shows the Iraqi Resistance is fighting harder now that Pelosi has encouraged them than they did when the Democrats were backing the war effort and not calling it a loss.

sirs

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2007, 11:19:21 PM »
<<LOL....yea broadcasting to the enemy that "we've lost" is so non-supportive to Islamic terrorists and their goals.  Yea, gives all our soldiers such a tingly feeling of support, don't it>>

I guess then you've got some evidence that shows the Iraqi Resistance is fighting harder now that Pelosi has encouraged them than they did when the Democrats were backing the war effort and not calling it a loss.

A) I'm referring to terrorists, not your prescious "freedom fighting Iraqi resistance fighters"
&
B) I'm referring to the logic of emboldening your enemy by telling them you're losing.  Think of a boxing match.  Notice how one boxer will start boxing that much harder when his opponent looks like they're losing.  Same logical concept, for those who grasp the concept of logic
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2007, 12:46:52 AM »
(A) the war in Iraq is not a boxing match and (B) Your total failure to produce one shred of evidence showing harder fighting by the Iraqi Resistance after Pelosi called a loss than before, indicates to me the total bankruptcy of your allegation that she put wind into the Resistance's sails. 

The only wind I'm aware of is the all-too-predictable storm of hot air generated by the rightwing fringe in Nancy Pelosi's direction because she had the God-damned nerve to call a spade a spade.

Amianthus

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2007, 12:54:34 AM »
Your total failure to produce one shred of evidence showing harder fighting by the Iraqi Resistance after Pelosi called a loss than before, indicates to me the total bankruptcy of your allegation that she put wind into the Resistance's sails. 

Hmm, wasn't it obvious?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2007, 12:57:06 AM »
(A) the war in Iraq is not a boxing match

I never said it was.  I was attempting to demonstrate the logic of telling your enemy that you're losing, and the ramifications of such.  Obviously that logic is just not possible with yourself


(B) Your total failure to produce one shred of evidence showing harder fighting by the Iraqi Resistance after Pelosi called a loss than before....

Never claimed to have "evidence", simply demonstrating for all to see how logic is patently foreign to a mindset, such as yours


The only wind I'm aware of is the all-too-predictable storm of hot air generated by the rightwing fringe in Nancy Pelosi's direction because she had the God-damned nerve to call a spade a spade.

While our militant Islamic ememies salivate all over it.  Thanks oh so very much Miss Pelosi, Mr. Reid     >:(
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2007, 12:57:52 AM »
Apparently, what's obvious to you and sirs isn't obvious to me, and what's obvious to me isn't obvious to you and sirs.  Obviously because I know what's going on and you guys don't.

sirs

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2007, 12:59:44 AM »
Apparently, what's obvious to you and sirs isn't obvious to me

Boy, ain't that the truth, in a nutshell.  Helps to have those Bush bashing blinders on as tight as possible.  Helps to ignore the obvious, even when it's factually presented

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2007, 01:13:35 AM »
<<I never said it [the war in Iraq] was [like a boxing match.]  I was attempting to demonstrate the logic of telling your enemy that you're losing, and the ramifications of such. >>

Well, I think the first thing you've got to realize is that what works in a boxing match is not going to work in a war.  If it did, the warriors would wear extravagantly coloured silk robes over boxing shorts, shake hands before the start of the match and generally try to refrain from killing one another.

The Iraqi Resistance, unlike the boxers, do not fight for sport.  Or money.  They are in a deadly serious "Death to the Infidels" mode and nothing will deter them from fighting to the bitter end.  So they are pretty impervious to what Nancy Pelosi or any other infidel will say about their chances.  They put their trust in Allah, not in Nancy Pelosi, and Allah tells them that victory will be theirs.  If Nancy Peolosi wants to add her two bits' worth to the words of the Almighty, I am not sure that any Resistance fighters will be unduly impressed or encouraged.  No more than they were depressed or discouraged when George Bush was prancing around in his flight suit under his giant "Mission Accomplished" banner.  All in all, I would say that these men are of a more sombre and serious manner than your average American boxer.

 <<Obviously that logic is just not possible with yourself>>

No, that's because I see war for what it is.  I don't make false analogies between war and boxing or war and Little League baseball or war and bowling tournaments.  My common sense tells me that these guys don't wax and wane depending on Nancy's assessment of their chances.   These guys are living exemplars of the phrase, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going."  With or without Nancy Pelosi.

Michael Tee

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2007, 01:17:24 AM »
<<Helps to have those Bush bashing blinders on as tight as possible.  Helps to ignore the obvious, even when it's factually presented>>

You betcha!  Thanks for the tips.

Plane

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Re: Editorial demands grow for pullout
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2007, 01:17:39 AM »
They're fighting for their own homes, their own land. 


Some of the are imports just as mch as ours are , and their most common victim is the Iriqui who is just in the wrong place.

I don't see any indication anywhere that Iriquis would rather be repressed by  a Shria  law Taliban empire ,than to form a government of their own.