I know your not gonna believe this

[Plane]

My huge worry about owning a gun is that I'll wound an attacker, they'll tell lies about the incident, and I'll go to jail. 

Better than being dead, yes. But it's a huge responsibility and worry.  Also I worry that, like a sheriff's deputy here, I would be disarmed and killed by my own weapon.

That is not uncommon really .

Do you suppose the police would be better off without the pistols?

[sirs]

My huge worry about owning a gun is that I'll wound an attacker, they'll tell lies about the incident, and I'll go to jail.   Better than being dead, yes. But it's a huge responsibility and worry.  Also I worry that, like a sheriff's deputy here, I would be disarmed and killed by my own weapon.

All of those absolutely legitimate worries, Lanya.  You have to weigh the pros & cons of gun ownership.  If your cons outweigh your pros, then don't.  Just don't try to impliment your worries about having a gun with responsible gun owners.  My wife is nearly an anti-gun nut, until she met me.  she has since softned her position considerably, but she has made it clear she wants nothing to do with them.  I have made it a point to educate her on the responsibility of having a firearm in the house, but I'll be the only one who has access to it, since it's quite apparent she's not going to make any attempt to be educated in handling or using a firearm. 

[BT]

My huge worry about owning a gun is that I'll wound an attacker, they'll tell lies about the incident, and I'll go to jail. 

Better than being dead, yes. But it's a huge responsibility and worry.  Also I worry that, like a sheriff's deputy here, I would be disarmed and killed by my own weapon.

Just imagine the attacker is GWBush. They'll need a vacuum to clean up the peices after you are done with him.

[sirs]

Also I worry that, like a sheriff's deputy here, I would be disarmed and killed by my own weapon.

Just imagine the attacker is GWBush. They'll need a vacuum to clean up the peices after you are done with him.

 

[Amianthus]

Also I worry that, like a sheriff's deputy here, I would be disarmed and killed by my own weapon.

So you've decided to disarm yourself ahead of time. How convenient.

[Amianthus]

[Michael Tee]

<<Tee, with all due seriousness, it seems that you have concluded that anytime "any" person possesses a firearm, it mutates their way of thinking, turning them into some aggressive maniac, if not worse.  >>

I don't think I went that far.  I postulated an incremental change - - a little less ready to leave the scene, a little more adventurous in venturing out into bad-guy territory, a little more willing to take the next step in a gradually escalating confrontation.  I didn't claim it caused a quantum leap from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde or from Mr. Rogers to Rambo.

<<The point that Plane, Ami, Professor, and so many others have made, is that those who have gone thru significant firearms training & safety, are in large part MUCH safer in their handling of firearms than the punk kid on the street, who might not think twice in killing you or your loved one.  >>

Firearms training makes a huge difference in how effectively a gun owner can use his weapon.  That I will concede and it's a good point.  If you ARE going to get a gun, invest in some heavy-duty training and don't skimp on it.  And then practice what you learned.  And practice and practice and practice.  Don't let your skills get rusty.

However once you've received what you feel is the maximum benefit possible from your training, you should make a realistic assessment of your own reflexes, speed and accuracy in firing.  Unless you're reasonably confident that in most scenarios, under real-life pressures in various environments  you can draw in about a second or less and hit your target's body mass four times out of five in two or three seconds, I would give serious thought to leaving the gun at home when you go out.

Handgun Magazine once did a survey on cops' ability to hit a moving target with a hand-gun under stringent time and space limits, firing only at body mass (the easiest human target.)  I don't recall the results now but they were not very impressive.  And these are guys who must spend at least one hour a week or month (I forget which) on the firing range.

And then you have also to consider the quality of available ammo.  Unless you plan to use hollow-points (which I understand are illegal in most states) you can't count on stopping your man even if you hit the body mass once or twice with anything less than .45 cal. ammo.   Handgun Mag had some great anecdotal stories about guys with two or three slugs in them still able to do battle with officers of the law.  A few years ago in Toronto, we had police called to the scene to deal with a rampaging pit bull.  The cop had to put three slugs from his .38 cal Smith & Wesson Police Special service revolver into the animal but she kept on coming.  As the officer was preparing his fourth shot, the animal ran away.  She was found two or three blocks away, three slugs in her and still alive.  With 9 mm. or steel-jacket .38 ammo and they are still capable of storming over, ripping the gun right out of your hand and turning it on you.

<<I can't count how many stories of lives that were saved by the presence of a firearm, as well as the many other tragic scenarios where a person with a firearm would have prevented some mass carnage/killing by some crackpot.>>

Well, as you probably know, we have some radically different gun laws up here in Canada (thank God!!!) and I haven't heard any such stories at all.  I know for a fact we have a lot less gun violence and whether or not that's due to your own Second Amendment rights, I can't say.

<<You're applying some mutation of a person's thought if someone is simply possessing & handling a gun.....>>

I already explained this at the top of this post.

<< . . . which likely IS the case for those hoodlums, punks, and gang members.  >>

There's all kinds.  With guns, without, with knives, without, with other weapons, without . . .

<<They probably are much more likely to pull it and use it, if they have one. >>

Pure speculation as to the likely actions of a large group of disparate youth, with many varied objectives, plans, armaments, etc.

 <<The ones who are much more likely to stop said punk killers, if the police aren't around, are precisely those who have been trained to handle a firearm, and are carrying a concealed weapon.>>

I think they're just as likely to get themselves killed, especially if the punks are faster, better coordinated or better shots than they themselves are.  Or more numerous - - you might kill one and the others will get you.

[Amianthus]

Handgun Magazine once did a survey on cops' ability to hit a moving target with a hand-gun under stringent time and space limits, firing only at body mass (the easiest human target.)  I don't recall the results now but they were not very impressive.  And these are guys who must spend at least one hour a week or month (I forget which) on the firing range.

Maybe in Canada, but in the US the cops are only required to show up once a year for qualifications. And the required shooting score is pretty low for them to keep their badge. I used to shoot at one of the local police ranges, and I consistently scored higher than most police officers. But then, I used to shoot several times a week and competed in PPC events.

[Amianthus]

And then you have also to consider the quality of available ammo.  Unless you plan to use hollow-points (which I understand are illegal in most states) you can't count on stopping your man even if you hit the body mass once or twice with anything less than .45 cal. ammo.

I know of no states where hollow point ammo is illegal. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

Hollow point is an excellent ammo to use for self-defense. It has the property of stopping in the first object it hits, so it prevents "overpenetration" - shooting through your target and hitting something behind it. It also prevents shooting through a wall (and possibly hitting someone in another room) if you miss your target.

[Plane]

And then you have also to consider the quality of available ammo.  Unless you plan to use hollow-points (which I understand are illegal in most states) you can't count on stopping your man even if you hit the body mass once or twice with anything less than .45 cal. ammo.

I know of no states where hollow point ammo is illegal. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

Hollow point is an excellent ammo to use for self-defense. It has the property of stopping in the first object it hits, so it prevents "overpenetration" - shooting through your target and hitting something behind it. It also prevents shooting through a wall (and possibly hitting someone in another room) if you miss your target.

Glazeer and prefrag is good too.


Another advantage of a hollow point is that if you shoot a tire with it the tire will flatten faster than if shot with a round point .

[sirs]

<<Tee, with all due seriousness, it seems that you have concluded that anytime "any" person possesses a firearm, it mutates their way of thinking, turning them into some aggressive maniac, if not worse.  >>

I don't think I went that far.  I postulated an incremental change - - a little less ready to leave the scene, a little more adventurous in venturing out into bad-guy territory, a little more willing to take the next step in a gradually escalating confrontation.  I didn't claim it caused a quantum leap from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde or from Mr. Rogers to Rambo.

My apologies if you thought I was making a Jeckyll --> Hyde reference.  Let me be clearer.  You seem to have this notion that as soon as someone is handling a firearm they no longer are able to think and act rationally, with some switch that turns on inside, allowing them to then do anything, even wreckless endangerment of others.  I wasn't referencing "quantum leaping", merely excessive leaping

<<The point that Plane, Ami, Professor, and so many others have made, is that those who have gone thru significant firearms training & safety, are in large part MUCH safer in their handling of firearms than the punk kid on the street, who might not think twice in killing you or your loved one.  >>

Firearms training makes a huge difference in how effectively a gun owner can use his weapon.  That I will concede and it's a good point.  If you ARE going to get a gun, invest in some heavy-duty training and don't skimp on it.  And then practice what you learned.  And practice and practice and practice.  Don't let your skills get rusty.

We're pretty close on this.  One SHOULD have significant training and fireamrs safety when they purchsase a firearm to keep at home.  One should not skimp on such training or allow those skills to get rusty.  However I wouldn't make that mandatory just to have one at home.  I would make it mandatory for anyone that wishes to carry concealed

However once you've received what you feel is the maximum benefit possible from your training, you should make a realistic assessment of your own reflexes, speed and accuracy in firing.  Unless you're reasonably confident that in most scenarios, under real-life pressures in various environments  you can draw in about a second or less and hit your target's body mass four times out of five in two or three seconds, I would give serious thought to leaving the gun at home when you go out.

Ok Wyatt Earp, we're not talking gunfights at the OK corrall, but you are correct that adrenaline during a life and death moment is likely to make using a firearm somewhat problematic.  That's where the skills training comes in, especially for those that have a CCW.  Proper use of a firearm is rarely how fast you can pull yours from its holster.  Proper use is in its handling.  I've read countless stories of how and when a pistol was used in self defense, and I'm sorry to tell you this, but prescious few had anything to do with some quick draw component

Handgun Magazine once did a survey on cops' ability to hit a moving target with a hand-gun under stringent time and space limits, firing only at body mass (the easiest human target.)  I don't recall the results now but they were not very impressive.  And these are guys who must spend at least one hour a week or month (I forget which) on the firing range.

Actually, that's not entirely accurate, as Police Officers are generally only required to qualify once a year, and that doesn't include any mandating of firing range useage.  Meaning, it not uncommon at all for officers to go for months on end without practicing.  But you are right in 1 regard, many score woefully low

And then you have also to consider the quality of available ammo.  Unless you plan to use hollow-points (which I understand are illegal in most states) you can't count on stopping your man even if you hit the body mass once or twice with anything less than .45 cal. ammo.  

A) I have no idea where hollow points have been made illegal.  Perhaps you can educate us.  I have a whole slew of them myself
B) a '22 can be just as lethal as a '45, depending on where you hit 'em

<<I can't count how many stories of lives that were saved by the presence of a firearm, as well as the many other tragic scenarios where a person with a firearm would have prevented some mass carnage/killing by some crackpot.>>

Well, as you probably know, we have some radically different gun laws up here in Canada and I haven't heard any such stories at all.  I know for a fact we have a lot less gun violence and whether or not that's due to your own Second Amendment rights, I can't say.

And all I know for a fact are the referencing of countless stories I've read where the mere brandishing of a firearm saved many a familys' life.  So you see, many a time, not even a round is fired, and the gun has saved lives

<<The ones who are much more likely to stop said punk killers, if the police aren't around, are precisely those who have been trained to handle a firearm, and are carrying a concealed weapon.>>

I think they're just as likely to get themselves killed, especially if the punks are faster, better coordinated or better shots than they themselves are.  Or more numerous - - you might kill one and the others will get you.

Then obviously you have no clue or concept of the training that CCW holders go thru, not to mention the IDPA competitions many of those same CCW holders get themselves involved with, and the sheer lack of such training said punk hasn't had

[_JS]

Tee might be referring to the Starpoint cartridge, which is not illegal, but was voluntarily pulled from civilian markets by Winchester and is supposed to be sold only through law enforcement vendors.

I think this is a matter of confusing lingo more than anything. Hollow-point bullets have been around since the 19th century Tee. They are often preferred for reasons given already.

The Starpoint was also known as the "cop killer" and is a type of hollow-point but is different than other types. There were concerns from police, the public, and emergency room workers.

are the referencing of countless stories I've read where the mere brandishing of a firearm saved many a familys' life

Out of curiosity Sirs, Ami, et al - where do you all live and/or find all of these "countless" stories? No wonder Europeans and others are scared of America if everyone needs a damned firearm to save their lives in their own homes. Remind me never to visit any of you!

Seriously, I live and work in a rather large city. I've never had a problem. I've been to all kinds of cities in the East and a couple out West and I don't recall ever worrying about my safety. Saint Louis, Memphis, Kansas City, Denver, Philadelphia, New York, Montreal, Camden (Camden for goodness sake!), Atlanta many times, Jacksonville, Gainesville wearing my UT colors, every major city in North and South Carolina, Washington DC, Virginia Beach, Hampton Roads, Norfolk...on and on and not just the nice areas.

So where the hell are all of these horrible break-ins, home invasions, muggings happening in such a high percentage that I should carry a concealed weapon or put one within arms reach at night?

[BT]

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/273/22/1759

[sirs]

are the referencing of countless stories I've read where the mere brandishing of a firearm saved many a familys' life

Out of curiosity Sirs, Ami, et al - where do you all live and/or find all of these "countless" stories?

I live in southern Calif, though have been in several locations of the country, including South Carolina.  Stories are read out of local newpapers, NRA publications, and related firearms magazines.  

And if it's your choice not to visit, that's you're perrogative of course, though as you have noted, I'm ususally referencing safe locations, were lives have been saved.  I'd strongly discourage you from visiting places where CCW's are frowned upon, if not completely abolished, such as DC.  Highest murder rate & gun violence in the country, I think

[Amianthus]

So where the hell are all of these horrible break-ins, home invasions, muggings happening in such a high percentage that I should carry a concealed weapon or put one within arms reach at night?

It's not a high percentage anywhere in the US. However, there are indications that it is higher in areas with strict gun control and lower in areas where there is more lax gun control. Most bad guys go to areas where they are less likely to be shot.

You can read stories of self-defense with firearms - many times without a shot being fired - in a number of magazines, including the several that the NRA publishes. These types of self-defense happen around 3.5 million times a year around the country, with fewer than 75,000 deaths attributed to firearms.