Author Topic: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture  (Read 5576 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2007, 09:22:07 PM »
<<Last June, followers of al-Qaeda captured two US soldiers at a checkpoint in Yusufiya.

<<Their mutilated and booby-trapped bodies were found days later after a search by thousands of troops.>>

Mutilation of a dead body is not torture.  It's fairly common in Arab and even southern Italian and Sicilian criminal culture (as a result of Arab cultural imprinting left by Moorish invaders) that when a particularly hated and despised individual is killed, the genitals are hacked off and left stuffed in the victim's mouth.  U.S. troops in Viet Nam followed similar practices in lopping off ears for souvenir necklaces or just collecting them in glass jars, in addition to the more ingenious ways they found of desecrating the bodies of the peasant guerrilla fighters. 

I didn't see anything about the soldiers you refer to that would indicate they were tortured.

They were part of the same unit that had raped and then murdered Abeer, a 14-year-old girl in that same area.  Since the actual perpetrators are going to escape with a slap on the wrist, somebody had to pay for the crime and unfortunately they were the ones.

BT

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2007, 10:16:25 PM »
Why do you presume the soldiers were dead when mutilated, seems to me if this were payback as you seem to think it is, they would do it when they were alive and could feel the pain.


domer

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2007, 10:34:05 PM »
Despite the ghoulish nature of this thread, comment appears to be mandated to clearly dispel, by virtually every measure, that al Qaeda hands are cleaner than Americans' in the common combat they have become ensnared in. America's military principles, and very often its execution of those principles, are among the highest in the history of warfare, for nations engaged in serious warfare. The major blemish on Americans is the "collateral damage" and dislocations this war of choice has brought, rendered so much more burdensome from the blunder of entry -- which taints the whole enterprise in the popular (global) mind -- but not from the design and intent adhering to a necessary (if temporary) presence now that "the die has been cast." Al Qaeda, on the other hand, by choice and necessity, thrives on non-military targets, ripping apart innocents in a reign of terror designed ultimately to usher in the most violent and repressive of regimes. As for the particular tactic of torture, broadly defined it is their standard calling card, and has become a showcase method of barbarity in Iraq, repeated over and over until the stomach revolts, and this as a matter of cold, calculated policy, not a spectacle such as ours with jingoes playing jailor in non-fatal ways.

Michael Tee

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2007, 11:36:48 PM »
<<Why do you presume the soldiers were dead when mutilated, seems to me if this were payback as you seem to think it is, they would do it when they were alive and could feel the pain. >>

Did you ever stop to consider the possibility that they're just not as sadistic as Americans?

How is it that you presume the worst of everyone else but presume the best of Americans? 

BT

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2007, 11:42:41 PM »
Quote
Did you ever stop to consider the possibility that they're just not as sadistic as Americans?

Um no. 9-11 seems contrary to that position.


Michael Tee

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2007, 12:07:42 AM »
<<America's military principles, and very often its execution of those principles, are among the highest in the history of warfare, for nations engaged in serious warfare. >>

That's just ludicrous.  Their trademark modus operandi has become wholesale massacres of civilian populations by mass bombings to minimize their own casualties in a wars begun and continued by fraud, whose only hope of continuing in the face of domestic popular opposition lies in cutting U.S. losses to the absolute minimum.

<<The major blemish on Americans is the "collateral damage"  . . . >>

Major blemish?  That's like saying that the major blemish of Nazi Germany was the Holocaust.  The inference is that here you have an exemplary nation (the U.S.A. in this case, Nazi Germany in my example) unfortunately tainted somewhat by the fact that hundreds of thousands and in some cases millions of civilians have to die in wars that it initiates for reasons that it dare not announce even to its own sheeple.  NEWFSLASH, domer:  600,000 dead civilians is not a "blemish" it is a fucking atrocity.  2 million dead Vietnamese is not a blemish, it's an even bigger atrocity.

<< . . .  rendered so much more burdensome from the blunder of entry >>

the liberal democratic mind at work - - the "blunder" of entry.  It was no blunder and most people in the world understand that perfectly well.  This was a criminal act of aggression of the exact same nature as was condemned at Nuremburg and resulted in death sentences for those who carried it out.

<<-- which taints the whole enterprise in the popular (global) mind -- but not from the design and intent adhering to a necessary (if temporary) presence now that "the die has been cast." >>

The die has been cast?  How's that for obfuscation?  The die was cast by an act of criminal aggression, which now becomes the justification for continuing the criminal aggression that began the whole thing.  There's a kind of "Dog Day Afternoon" quality to this bizarre form of self-exculpation - - the criminals raid the bank, hoping to rob it and make a quick getaway; they become trapped inside, surrounded by cops with no way out.  I guess, as people continue to get killed in the battle for the bank, the criminals could  justify their continuing defiance of law and order with a semi-mystical submission to fate - - "the die is cast" and now everyone must play out his role - - but what kind of feeble-minded jerk would accept that mock submission to fate as any kind of exculpatory justification for the continuation of the original criminal conspiracy?  

<<Al Qaeda, on the other hand, by choice and necessity, thrives on non-military targets, ripping apart innocents in a reign of terror designed ultimately to usher in the most violent and repressive of regimes. >>

Translation:  to realize THEIR political goals, al Qaeda has to sacrifice innocent civilian life.  Which of course is different from the U.S. policy how?

<<As for the particular tactic of torture, broadly defined it is their standard calling card, and has become a showcase method of barbarity in Iraq, repeated over and over until the stomach revolts . . . >>

Maybe you could back up that hyperbolic bs with just ONE example of al Qaeda torturing anyone?  You just might be confusing them with the Shi'ite death squads operating out of the Ministry of the Interior of the U.S.-backed al Maliki government.  But I'm a reasonable man - - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  And all I ask is just one example.

<< and this as a matter of cold, calculated policy, not a spectacle such as ours with jingoes playing jailor in non-fatal ways.>>

What is non-fatal in pulping a 23-year-old guy's legs for three days till he dies of venous embolisms?  What's non-fatal about beating a guy and smothering him in a sleeping bag till he croaks?  These are just two cases that came to light on U.S. torture of prisoners, not one has come to light regarding al Qaeda treatment of prisoners.

Michael Tee

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2007, 12:15:10 AM »
<<Um no. 9-11 seems contrary to that position. [that al Qaeda just isn't as sadistic as Americans]>>

I wouldn't go there if I were you, BT.  The issue was torture, but if you want to use killing innocent civilians as a measure of sadism, particularly, burning them to death, I think you'll find that the USA is well ahead of all its competitors in that league.  9-11 is just a drop in the bucket - - shit, the Americans killed more civilians in one night in Panama City than died in the WTC.  Stick to torture, BT, you're on safer ground.

domer

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2007, 01:40:30 AM »
I not only stand by my comments but reiterate them with renewed force. Your contrary mantra has long since passed the time of being acceptable as the mutterings of a mad man; now they severely rankle as the holier-than-thou ravings of a violent anti-American, someone for whom I've lost not only patience but any impulse to indulge.

Michael Tee

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2007, 07:37:22 AM »
<<I not only stand by my comments but reiterate them with renewed force.>>

Proving what?  That your original position is indefensible in view of the contrary facts I presented and your own inability to come up with any facts in support of your ludicrous platitudes?

<< Your contrary mantra has long since passed the time of being acceptable as the mutterings of a mad man . . . >>

More childish insults in lieu of fact or logic?  More irrelevant twaddle (acceptable/unacceptable?)

<< now they severely rankle as the holier-than-thou ravings of a violent anti-American>>

Give it up, domer.  The time is long gone when the opponents of war and carnage can be smeared as "violent" while the authors of it get some kind of pass from greedy little Democrats only looking for their turn at the trough.  Ditto for that "anti-American" bullshit.  You war-mongering bastards love to wrap yourself in the flag but it's starting to wear a little thin by now.  There's nothing "American" about mass murder and torture, and opposing them is not "anti-American."

<<someone for whom I've lost not only patience but any impulse to indulge.>>

And, uh, if I may be permitted to ask, sir:  Just who the fuck are you?  And who needs to ask for your patience or your "indulgence?"

domer

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2007, 04:33:45 PM »
*I* am someone smarter than you and much more balanced.

Michael Tee

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2007, 06:49:12 PM »
<<*I* am someone smarter than you and much more balanced.>>

My first real laugh of the day.  Somebody's gotta be smarter than I, might as well be you.  Congratulations.

Don't get fixated on "balance," domer.  In your case, it's just the result of selling out.


Plane

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2007, 01:23:17 AM »
<<Al Quaeda had good reason to not torture Richard Pearl ,who went to them empty handed and eager to get their side of the story told , but haveing a helpless victim in their hands it was just too good to resist.>>

Untrue.  They did not torture Daniel Pearl.

<<Al Queda has a history that includes rape , murder and torture more than is usual even in their neck of the woods.>>

Only the U.S.A. has a rap sheet that includes all three: rape, murder and torture.  I'm not aware of rape or torture attributed to al Qaeda.  Maybe you could enlighten me. 

<<The US military is procicuteing such deeds more eagerly than any armed force in history ever has. >>

That is a joke.  Hundreds of U.S. soldiers were executed for rape and murder in WWII.  Not one executed for rape or murder in Viet Nam or Iraq.  You just make stuff up as you go along with no factual background at all.  How eagerly are they prosecuting anything when the executive branch itself finds the Geneva Conventions "quaint and old-fashioned?"  The Allied leadership of WWII respected and honoured the Geneva Conventions.  How is an executive branch that trashes the Geneva Conventions going to realistically prosecute violations?  You haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about.

<<How can you take the trials and convictions of such wrong doers as eidence of Naional wrongdoing ? >>

The trials and convictions are a joke.  No high-ranking officer charged, let alone convicted.  Nobody sentenced to death.  Nobody sentenced to life without parole.  Nobody sentenced to life, period.  Nobody sentenced to ten years.  With time off for good behaviour, appeals of sentence and convictions still in progress, the examples of Viet Nam and the fate of the mass murderer Wm. Calley, everybody with half a brain knows that the trials are charades and the sentences are kissy-kissy shams.   

<<How can you cut Al Queda so much slack that they have your approval to torture at every oppurtunity they get and never one time call in any way for any reduction in torture?>>

When did I approve torture by anybody?  al Qaeda so far has not tortured anyone, it's too bad they botch some of the beheadings, but the U.S. supervises hangings that are just as badly botched.  To compare what happened to Pearl with the victims of U.S. torture, some 40-odd of whose deaths under "interrogation" are being investigated, is ludicrous.  Some of the victims of U.S. torture were tortured for days before they died.

<<They send commendations to a guy that beheads with a small dull knife , their own shira law would not allow them to treat a pidgion that badly.>>

That's torture?  Negroponte should send some of those guys to visit his proteges in El Salvador and Guatemala to learn what real torture is all about.


"Hundreds of U.S. soldiers were executed for rape and murder in WWII. "
I didn't know that , where can I look it up?

Never the less, hundres executed for rape and murder would make my point , presently there are not even an hundred accused takeing the smaller numbers into account , this is still an improvement per capata. If here were hundreds convicted there must have been thousands accused.

Why was Daniel Pearl killed?
What indeed was the manner of his death?

Plane

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2007, 01:32:24 AM »
approximately one court-martial was convened for every eight service members who served in the US armed forces during World War II.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ICK/is_3_14/ai_68507686


http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/i8046.html

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/03/19/news/top_stories/3190711303.txt


http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=1565123948

http://www.lewrockwell.com/peirce/peirce68.html



These were all interestng and on subject but I did not have any luck finding a real set of apple to apple comparison facts about whether the WWII army was better behaved than the present one.

I fond a lot that made me thinkwe were more tolerant of this sort of misbehavior back when.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 01:56:22 AM by Plane »

Plane

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2007, 01:59:21 AM »
http://www.milmag.com/newsite/features/bookreviews/patton/index.html


I have read this book and I highly reccomend it.

Michael Tee

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Re: Probably the Most Practical Reason Why the U.S. Shouldn't Torture
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2007, 11:52:59 AM »
<<I have read this book and I highly reccomend it.>>

I didn't read the book but a magazine - - I believe the New York Times weekend mag - - had a good article on it.  I believe Patton got into some very deep shit on this not only because the whole column was lost but because he was said to have ordered the project out of pure nepotism.  If his son-in-law had not been a prisoner there, it would never have happened.  Maybe the book dealt with that accusation more fully - - the magazine article just mentioned it in passing.