Author Topic: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq  (Read 6577 times)

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domer

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The recent, gratuitous blood-libel insults leveled against our fighting men and women by the assassin of the left, the Canadian crank Michael Tee, have given me occasion for this seemingly innumerable time to try to fix my bearings on what is right and just for our mission in Iraq, if not what is realistically possible -- the key question at that. I start from the proposition that the invasion should never have been launched for it failed (in the retrospective scrutiny) the key, sine qua non aspect spurring invasion: the presence of WMD. (Importantly, at the time the "go" order was given, there is a great lacuna in the data on the bona fides of the various principals, up to and including President Bush himself. Yet, necessarily, theories swirl around the principals' intent: pristinely good faith (unlikely), negligent, reckless, malevolent. I settle for reasons of common sense (not to be elaborated here further) on the "middle intents," negligent or reckless, given the entire panorama of the problem and the solemn duties involved.) The possession of workable, deliverable WMD's coupled with the intent and ability to do us harm in that way (any other way of harming us, such as a hypothetical amphibious assault on our beaches, say, would not satisfy the stringent criteria for a consensus use of a preemptive strike). The connections to terrorists in any demonstrably operational way, which was feared to be the most likely method of delivery of WMD-harm, also did not withstand scrutiny. And, of course, the direct link between Iraq and 911, stumbled over repeatedly, simply had no substance.

Yet, the critics claiming a rape of Iraq have been muted (given that potential charge) because the eddy of actual facts was stirrred by the soul-wrenching fears of a great nation and the neo-con pre-set template (employed by people duly elected partly on that basis) of keenly desiring a transformative event in the Middle East preferably through the means of the overthrow of Saddam and the planting a freer, more Western-friendly government.

As I see it, at the time the order was given to attack, the case for war against Iraq was a close one. Arrayed next to the "legal requisite" items identified in the last two paragraphs, adding heft and impetus if not validity on their own, there existed the matter of UN Resolution 1441 (and the minor but existing question of whether a constituent state could enforce on its own a Security Council resolution), the "continuing state of war, or absence of peace," since the 1991 Gulf War, the Iraqi practice of periodically attacking our aircraft enforcing the lawful no-fly zone, Saddam's open cheerleading and financial support of terrorists and their families, Saddam's being the leading occupant of the Muslim bully-pulpit at least indirectly stoking hatred of the US (and presumably encouraging its actual, physical enemies), the yawning need for something dramatic and decisive in the Middle East to stop the swing of popular sentiment and institutional support for a radicalism quickly being deployed to destroy and "reclaim" much of the Muslim world, if not all of it, and to eliminate through a thousand cuts or a few big calamities the Great Satan, the US.

No, the invasion, overthrow of Saddam and installation of a new government accompanied by a necessary occupation was not the cause of our great national heartache, it was the mismanagement of the endgame of the invasion and the entirety of the occupation, which flowed from terrible lapses in leadership. Had things gone as anticipated (who was handing out the orse-colored glasses?), we simply would not be questioning let alone protesting what (through those rose-colored glasses) could have been a boon to every decent person concerned, and prominently us. As it was, refleccting prescient pre-war assessments such as Sen. Kennedy's, a guerilla opposition developed and flourished, internal political wrangling accentuated, not modulated, differences, fighting raged in the streets, the government was singularly ineffectual, and the death toll rose among innocent Iraqis and the American servicemen, the salt of the earth who answered a noble call to duty only to be met by a maelstrom, which they neither created nor anticipated.

But now we're there. The politics of the matter as it is poised just now has it just about right. The president, despite his "stay the course" basic orientation, is finally -- at the point where he has little choice, but only to the extent he is forced -- is making some concessions as to benchmarks and renewed pressure on the Iraqi government. This is occurring as a consequence of Congressional pressure, but a pressure that will fall short of the Legislature "pulling the trigger," that is, defunding the war, because that step subjects them to catastrophic political liability should things go South in a hurry after withdrawal. It's better for them -- and for us -- to move in increments, shooting for if not attaining a consensus, than risk having th whole thing really go to hell in a handbasket during a timeout they called themselves.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2007, 04:58:04 PM by domer »

Plane

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2007, 03:12:18 AM »
I like your analysis , and partially agree.


What is the value of being resolute?

Have you ever seen a squirrel on the street displaying a lot of running energy and little decisiveness as it chooses alternately to advance and retreat? The squirrel would be better with either choice kept than with the repeated reconsideration.

How can we remain a free society , yet present to an enemy a united front?

Amianthus

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2007, 10:03:00 AM »
Have you ever seen a squirrel on the street displaying a lot of running energy and little decisiveness as it chooses alternately to advance and retreat? The squirrel would be better with either choice kept than with the repeated reconsideration.

Against cars or ground predators. However, the biggest threat to a squirrel's life is from raptors. This constant weaving and dancing is enough to disrupt a raptor's diving attack.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

domer

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2007, 11:16:14 AM »
I thank Ami for the "save" on Plane's "squirrel" analogy. Yet, the metaphors abound for the Iraq venture. Even hinting at our present predicament (which, overall, is a major failure) as being due to the "irresolute" (I prefer "thoughful") amongst us is a major disservice to the truth. It should be obvious to all that to a painful degree at least, Bush has been resolute in watching the lemmings he set in motion fall off the cliff despite the rousing cries of his critics for them to, "Turn right! (or left!)"

The_Professor

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2007, 11:46:17 AM »
A possible solutiion might be to employ what esentially worked in the past. If I remember, Turkey adequately governed Iraq for quite some time. Is a possible method employing a strategy such as the Romans used, e.g. employing a constabulary force of non-
Legion, in this case the Turks? (or a similar ruthless yet effective middle-man) to govern until Iraq's fragile democracy can stabilize?

A side note: Would this require less of a Press presence due to the effective yet brutal means the Turks might use to establish and maintain order?

I remember, er, there was/we had a Turk regiment in Nam. Their area of the base was the only one, along with the Ghurka contingent, that was free of snipers. You could drive around all day and not have to worry. Our sector was not this way; you drove as fast as you could and ducked an awful lot. The Vietnamese were legitimately afraid of both contingents, for good reasons. I remember once the Vietnamese pissed off the Turks. Can't remember the reason. The Turks went after them and literally skinned many of them alive while pursuing "other leisurely pursuits" with many more and them left them for all to see. They were gone over a week. US Command was perplexed, not knowing what happened ot the Turks. BTW, it can take literally hours to flay a man alive while keeping him still marginally alive, I am told. The Turks were never bothered again. A lesson learned perhaps? (all this is obviously flalse as things like this never happen, just fiction of course)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 01:33:23 PM by The_Professor »
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Michael Tee

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2007, 12:29:29 PM »
Fuck with the Turks and you could get skinned alive.  That was then, this is now.   Now the Turks want to be admitted into the EU, so the question is, why would they want to give up on ever getting into the EU just for the dubious privilege of carrying America's water in Iraq?  Actually why would ANYBODY want to carry America's water for it in Iraq? 

Of course, you could always find an Iraqi group or faction with sufficient ruthlessness - - which just begs the question, what was the real problem with Saddam anyway?  Why go all the way round the world for half a trill just to end up in the same place?  At that point, the question wouldn't be whether Bush should be impeached or not, it would become why he shouldn't be hanged, drawn and quartered.

The_Professor

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2007, 01:13:36 PM »
Good point, MT, about the Turks and EU entry. I guess they have to be more "civilized" now, huh? Too bad. There is sometimes a need, unfortunatley, for brute force and brutality, as untasteful as it is in reality.
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Plane

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2007, 01:21:45 PM »
Have you ever seen a squirrel on the street displaying a lot of running energy and little decisiveness as it chooses alternately to advance and retreat? The squirrel would be better with either choice kept than with the repeated reconsideration.

Against cars or ground predators. However, the biggest threat to a squirrel's life is from raptors. This constant weaving and dancing is enough to disrupt a raptor's diving attack.


I agree , but this expands the metaphor to illustrate the inflexability of instinctive response, against the threat of an oncoming truck the behavior that saves a squirrel from a hawk becomes inappropriate.  within this metaphor is our squirrel facing more of a truck or more of a hawk?

domer

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2007, 01:27:39 PM »
In a properly-drawn analogy, the US is the TRUCK, and the squirrel is named "I.E.D."

Michael Tee

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2007, 01:32:28 PM »
<<There is sometimes a need, unfortunatley, for brute force and brutality, as untasteful as it is in reality.>>

It's never a need, Professor, it's always a choice.  And IMHO, when you make that choice, you lose your soul.

It's really a question of means and ends.  Once you accept that the end justifies the means, you can justify any means as long as the end is dire enough.  I think you have to accept the fact that sometimes the world will deal out results that you are not going to like - - innocents are going to get killed, and it's out of your control.  The only thing that is absolutely within your control is how YOU act, what YOU do (or don't do.)  I think you have to accept that - - for example - -the death of a loved one is beyond your control.  He or she can die at any time in a thousand different ways.  And sooner or later they will.  The question isn't really how they live or die - - they could be hit by a truck the day after you save their life by torture - - the question always is how did YOU, Professor, conduct yourself?

Plane

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2007, 01:35:29 PM »
I thank Ami for the "save" on Plane's "squirrel" analogy. Yet, the metaphors abound for the Iraq venture. Even hinting at our present predicament (which, overall, is a major failure) as being due to the "irresolute" (I prefer "thoughful") amongst us is a major disservice to the truth. It should be obvious to all that to a painful degree at least, Bush has been resolute in watching the lemmings he set in motion fall off the cliff despite the rousing cries of his critics for them to, "Turn right! (or left!)"


I take it then that you do not think being resolute is very much of a virtue  , or is that particular to this situation?

Plane

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2007, 01:39:09 PM »
<<There is sometimes a need, unfortunatley, for brute force and brutality, as untasteful as it is in reality.>>

It's never a need, Professor, it's always a choice.  And IMHO, when you make that choice, you lose your soul.

It's really a question of means and ends.  Once you accept that the end justifies the means, you can justify any means as long as the end is dire enough.  I think you have to accept the fact that sometimes the world will deal out results that you are not going to like - - innocents are going to get killed, and it's out of your control.  The only thing that is absolutely within your control is how YOU act, what YOU do (or don't do.)  I think you have to accept that - - for example - -the death of a loved one is beyond your control.  He or she can die at any time in a thousand different ways.  And sooner or later they will.  The question isn't really how they live or die - - they could be hit by a truck the day after you save their life by torture - - the question always is how did YOU, Professor, conduct yourself?


Are members of Al Quieda then , completely dehumanized?

Michael Tee

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2007, 07:33:20 PM »
<<Are members of Al Quieda then , completely dehumanized?>>

Why the focus on the members of al Qaeda?  Are you planning to make them your role model?

I would say that the members of al Qaeda are just as much members of the human race as the members of the U.S.M.C. and as such the problem of squaring their actions with their God is 100% their problem.  Not your problem.

Your problem (which you seem to be willing to go to extraordinary lengths to avoid facing, for example dragging in the al Qaeda actors as if you had any moral responsibility at all for their actions) is that you are a part of the U.S.M.C. actions in that your tax money pays for them and they purport to act in the name of the U.S.A., of which you are a responsible citizen.

So that their atrocities become your atrocities.  So that when revenge for their atrocities is exacted, be it the downing of a civilian airliner, be it the destruction of more office towers - - you are being asked to pay for their crimes.

I think we're all well past the point where only one side can point at the other and say smugly:  "THEY kill innocents."  Both sides are killing innocents, the U.S. side killing a lot more innocents than the Muslim side.  Because of their cowardice in battle, their refusal to go mano-a-mano with the enemy for fear of incurring politically unacceptable casualties that would cause the abandonment of the whole enterprise.  So you have to take a step back from the struggle and look at the basics, and ask yourself:  Who is fucking with who?  Did the Arabs colonize the West and try to rip off its resources and rule them by force?  Did the Arabs plant a huge Arab settlement in the heart of Europe or North America, expel the original inhabitants and rule over the others by pure force of arms?  Did the Arabs invade European or American countries and kill hundreds of thousands of them?  No.  No.  And no.  It was the reverse of all that.  So who has the greater "right" to be pissed off?  In the tit-for-tat round of slaughter - - who is the aggrieved party and who is the aggressor?

And finally, when you can show me evidence - - not speculation, but real evidence - - that alQaeda tortures prisoners to the extent that the U.S. tortures prisoners - - then your question about the dehumanization of al Qaeda might have some legitimacy.  When you can show that al Qaeda not only kills innocents, but rapes them before killing them, as the U.S. has done, then your question might seem a little less strange.  Now it is only pathetic, a morally blind diversion fooling nobody.

The_Professor

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2007, 09:30:39 PM »
<<There is sometimes a need, unfortunatley, for brute force and brutality, as untasteful as it is in reality.>>

It's never a need, Professor, it's always a choice.  And IMHO, when you make that choice, you lose your soul.

It's really a question of means and ends.  Once you accept that the end justifies the means, you can justify any means as long as the end is dire enough.  I think you have to accept the fact that sometimes the world will deal out results that you are not going to like - - innocents are going to get killed, and it's out of your control.  The only thing that is absolutely within your control is how YOU act, what YOU do (or don't do.)  I think you have to accept that - - for example - -the death of a loved one is beyond your control.  He or she can die at any time in a thousand different ways.  And sooner or later they will.  The question isn't really how they live or die - - they could be hit by a truck the day after you save their life by torture - - the question always is how did YOU, Professor, conduct yourself?

Hmm, I think MT that life isn't that black and white. Realisticially, it is the VICTORS who write the history books for future generations. So, in a sense, victory at any cost is better than losing and losing all you hold dear. Being all high and mighty is fine but if you lose the war, then what does it serve you? Zip!
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Michael Tee

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Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2007, 10:43:09 PM »
<<Hmm, I think MT that life isn't that black and white. >>

I'd say the moral choice is black and white.  We all know what's the right thing, Professor.  Whether we always have the moral integrity to do the right thing, that's something else.  If I were a Pole, with a wife and family depending on me, would I want to risk torture and death for my whole family to oblige a Jew who came to me and begged me to save  his little girl?  I don't kid myself that I would, Professor.  But I know what would have been right.

<<Realisticially, it is the VICTORS who write the history books for future generations. >>

Don't tell me you'd sell your soul for a good word in a victor's history book.  Vanity, vanity, all is vanity?  That can't be right.

<<So, in a sense, victory at any cost is better than losing and losing all you hold dear.>>

I had no idea you were such a materialist, Professor.  What profiteth it a man that he gain the whole world if he lose his soul?  Jesus, Professor, you must have known that.

<< Being all high and mighty is fine but if you lose the war, then what does it serve you? Zip! >>

Come on, Professor - - if you WIN the war, you're still gonna die sooner or later.  Don't the winners still have to llook at themselves in the mirror?  And the funny thing is, the U.S. will never be defeated by Arabs, whether it tortures them or not.   The victims of U.S. torture - - Arabs, Vietnamese, Third World guerrilla fighters - - never stood a hope in hell of bringing down the U.S.A.  Most of them strike out of rage or desperation, no longer caring if they live or die.  They don't want to bring down America, they just want America out of their own back yard, off their backs.  They want to be masters in their own homes.  The sadism of the American "fighting man" isn't the last resort of someone with his back to the wall, fighting off anihilation - - it's just the anger and greed of the wealthiest nation on the face of the earth, determined to make an example of any peon anywhere who thinks he's entitled to stand up as a man equal to the foreigners who dictate to his own government.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 10:44:49 PM by Michael Tee »