Author Topic: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq  (Read 6812 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2007, 01:46:04 AM »
 
Quote
- - it's just the anger and greed of the wealthiest nation on the face of the earth, determined to make an example of any peon anywhere who thinks he's entitled to stand up as a man equal to the foreigners who dictate to his own government.

Our people are on the side of people who want the right to stand like human beings in the face of government .

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2007, 02:05:06 AM »
<<Our people are on the side of people who want the right to stand like human beings in the face of government .>>

Sure - - unless it's the U.S. government they want to stand like human beings against.  Only U.S. citizens have the right to stand like human beings in the face of the U.S. government.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2007, 02:19:04 AM »
<<Our people are on the side of people who want the right to stand like human beings in the face of government .>>

Sure - - unless it's the U.S. government they want to stand like human beings against.  Only U.S. citizens have the right to stand like human beings in the face of the U.S. government.


No, you are welcome to continue.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2007, 12:15:00 PM »
<<No, you are welcome to continue.>>

Thanks, but I was referring to the VC.  Or the Cubans.  People who take a REAL stand against your government.  Your government has an enormous tolerance for impotent ranting and raving.  What it can't handle is pesky foreigners who say NO to it with live ammunition and are prepared to die rather than submit.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2007, 12:39:10 PM »
<<No, you are welcome to continue.>>

Thanks, but I was referring to the VC.  Or the Cubans.  People who take a REAL stand against your government.  Your government has an enormous tolerance for impotent ranting and raving.  What it can't handle is pesky foreigners who say NO to it with live ammunition and are prepared to die rather than submit.


Those who want to disagree with us and take us to task with every form of suasion and leagal recourse are welcome to continue.

Anyone who kills an American for being an American should be killed by Americans as soon as can be managed.

The_Professor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2007, 01:07:20 PM »
<<No, you are welcome to continue.>>

Those who want to disagree with us and take us to task with every form of suasion and leagal recourse are welcome to continue.

Anyone who kills an American for being an American should be killed by Americans as soon as can be managed.

Hear hear! The U.S. government sholud pursue any instances like with the most vigor. If a Legionnaire was killed by a non-Roman, entire villages were put to the flame. Probably due to this, this event was seldom.
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2007, 01:11:10 PM »
<<If a Legionnaire was killed by a non-Roman, entire villages were put to the flame. Probably due to this, this event was seldom.>>

Yeah, the good old days.  Back when the villagers couldn't figure out how to fly hijacked airliners into the Capitol.  Or how to assemble nuclear weapons from black-market parts.  Back when the villagers didn't outnumber the Romans by a factor of hundreds of millions to one.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2007, 03:06:16 PM »
"........  Back when the villagers didn't outnumber the Romans by a factor of hundreds of millions to one."

When was that?


Or when will it be?

Population of Earth , one in five is Chineese , one in twenty is American.

The_Professor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2007, 03:21:54 PM »
<<If a Legionnaire was killed by a non-Roman, entire villages were put to the flame. Probably due to this, this event was seldom.>>

Yeah, the good old days.  Back when the villagers couldn't figure out how to fly hijacked airliners into the Capitol.  Or how to assemble nuclear weapons from black-market parts.  Back when the villagers didn't outnumber the Romans by a factor of hundreds of millions to one.

MT, don't be naive, please.

The principle is the crucial piece. "Mess with one of mine and you'll pay." I do not see why this is anathema to you. Shouldn't there be a penalty for killing a citizen of your country? Let's say a Canadian was in Iran and was killed by the Iranians becuase he/she was a Canadian? Pretty bad precedent, huh? In that case, sever repurcussions should be in order. Should only take a few times before no one messes with a Canadian again. Or, as you are prone to say, diplomacy should be pursued. Really? So, then the message comes across that all you have ot do to get a cool million in Canadain is to kidnap a Canadian? Come on...
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2007, 07:05:34 PM »
<<The principle is the crucial piece. "Mess with one of mine and you'll pay.">>

Professor, I don't disagree with the principle.  But there are certain underlying assumptions here that are not always found in the real world.  The primary assumption is that the person messed with is innocently going about his or her own business and is then attacked for no good reason.

Unfortunately in the real world, there are plenty of Americans out to do real harm to the inhabitants of the rest of the world.  They get "messed with" as representatives of an evil empire and a cycle of violence ensues - - retaliation by the Americans and counter-retaliation from their Third World victims.  The domestic MSM reports these events in a curious way that sensationalizes the violence of the Third World payback while ignoring the provocations that came before.  Thus America always appears as the innocent victim and its attacks on the Third World are presented as justified revenge.

Part of the problem is that the harm done by America is not overt violence and is not visible.  It consists of support given to dictators who follow pro-Amrican policy, specifically economic policy which effectively commits the Third World to disastrous "bargains" with Western lenders, burdening the people with ongoing debt for generations into the future for relatively useless "infrastructure" which even if built does not address popular needs but instead functions as a sinkhole of capital, which comes from multinational lenders (the World Bank is an excellent example) and flows into the pockets of crooked local and multinational "contractors."  The political harm done by the Americans is their ideological support of right-wing dictators who can crush local labour movements, democracy movements opposed to the economic rape that I just described, and anyone else who threatens the dictatorship and the status quo.

These events, boring in their details, necessarily conducted in secrecy, do not find their way to the front page as easily as a "terrorist" explosion, which of course leads to the skewed view that most Americans have of the world - - they get to see in endless gory detail the results of the Third World's rage, at the same time being sheltered from the minutiae and incomplete details of the causes of that rage.  The same interests that profit from the U.S. exploitation of the Third World also fund both political parties, so very little of the underlying causes ever gets discussed in public debate and the corporate MSM devotes endless hours to ridiculous panel discussions of "why they hate us" and "where are the moderates?" with little if any attention being paid to the realities of the situation.

The millions of Third World people killed as a direct result of American policy rarely make the front pages, and when they do, "the executioner's face is always well hidden," (Bob Dylan's words) meaning that the deaths of millions of Africans from AIDS, or thousands of Arabs in the West Bank or millions of Iranians and Iraqis in the Iran-Iraq war rarely if ever trace the causes back to their inside-the-Beltway origins.  As control of the MSM concentrates into fewer and fewer corporations, the opportunity for alternative analyses of these events to reach a mass audience steadily shrinks, although of course there is no lack of opportunity for a small and lively alternative publishing network to put such views before a relatively tiny audience of academics, hippies, non-conformists and intellectuals whose total combined votes and ability to influence the course of action of the two "official" parties is minimal to negligible.  A perfect example BTW of the principle known as "repressive tolerance."

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2007, 07:30:21 PM »
Gotta do something about the title of this thread.  Every time I look at it, I think "West Orange is not a hamlet."

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2007, 02:18:27 PM »

"....specifically economic policy which effectively commits the Third World to disastrous "bargains" with Western lenders, burdening the people with ongoing debt for generations ..."

In recent years the USA has forgiven a lot of debt twards the third world ,we have also seen debt forgiveness on the part of some European creditors.

Although this amounts to Billions of man hour work , it has not amounted to good propaganda.

Accusation is cheap and effective , generosity is expensive and ineffective.

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2007, 02:27:06 PM »
Quote
Hear hear! The U.S. government sholud pursue any instances like with the most vigor. If a Legionnaire was killed by a non-Roman, entire villages were put to the flame. Probably due to this, this event was seldom.

Interesting. A Christian who proposes to exact revenge on innocents to set an example?

Which of Christ's teachings would that have been?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2007, 02:32:38 PM »
"........  Back when the villagers didn't outnumber the Romans by a factor of hundreds of millions to one."

When was that?


Or when will it be?

Population of Earth , one in five is Chineese , one in twenty is American.


There is of course a bit of overlap because there are some who are both.
But we are not outnumbered all that badly .

The_Professor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Hamlet of West Orange, That Is, Making My Mind Up on Iraq
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2007, 06:21:13 PM »
Quote
Hear hear! The U.S. government sholud pursue any instances like with the most vigor. If a Legionnaire was killed by a non-Roman, entire villages were put to the flame. Probably due to this, this event was seldom.

Interesting. A Christian who proposes to exact revenge on innocents to set an example?

Which of Christ's teachings would that have been?

If you think Christ was a wmp, thnr you and I read a different Bible. :-)
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D