Author Topic: My big fat American gas tax  (Read 7430 times)

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The_Professor

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My big fat American gas tax
« on: May 21, 2007, 06:10:48 PM »
What do YOU think?

My big fat American gas tax
Should Americans consider a big price hike in an attempt to reduce demand and transfer money from Big Oil to the general public?

By Steve Hargreaves, CNNMoney.com staff writer
May 21 2007: 4:35 PM EDT
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- It seems completely counterintuitive: Raise the gasoline tax to help American commuters.

Motorists are already paying well over $3 a gallon, and there are signs that it's beginning to cut into demand and hurt consumer spending.

But if a big gas tax was levied - like the $1 or $2 tax Europeans have to keep prices permanently over $3 or $4 a gallon - how could that possibly help American consumers?

One argument says a tax would crimp demand, lowering wholesale prices.

"Anybody with any brains has advocated that, but not the politicians." said Fadel Gheit, an energy analyst at the financial services company Oppenheimer.

Lower wholesale prices, which would mean less profits for oil firms, combined with a higher tax could transfer money from Big Oil to the government, which could then use the cash for public programs.

Consumers would have to pay the same amount - or even more than now - but at least that extra cash could be returned to them in some way.

It might be used as a tax credit to offset the sting for those with a lower income, countering one of the most common arguments against such a tax. It could also go towards improvements in mass transit, expanded student loans or lower health insurance premiums.

Lower gasoline consumption would also reduce greenhouse gas emissions, a growing concern in the face of global warming.

"We still don't pay very much in gas taxes," said Lee Schipper, research director at Embarq, the World Resources Institute's Center for Sustainable Transport.

While wholesale prices for gasoline are generally the same in Europe as they are in the U.S., Schipper noted the $5, $6 or $7 a gallon Europeans pay, thanks to the high tax.

Americans, by contrast, pay a federal tax of about 18 cents a gallon. State taxes vary but are generally lower than 40 cents a gallon.

"As long as the marginal cost of driving is so low, the big changes aren't going to happen," said Schipper, who supports both a larger U.S. gas tax and more fuel-efficient vehicles.

By big changes, he means driving attitudes that more closely resemble Europe's, where he said there are 30 percent fewer cars per person, 30 percent fewer miles traveled per car and cars that use 30 percent less fuel.

Now sure, it may be easier for the Europeans to do this. The continent is more densely populated, and development has historically been more clustered in towns. Public transport is undeniably better. But whether this is a result of their high taxes is debatable.

Schipper said the European gas taxes were instituted in the 1920's, primarily as a luxury tax on automobiles, which were then mostly toys for the rich.

The relatively vast network of rail lines were already laid, and gasoline tax revenue was directed to general state coffers. Even today, gas taxes go to the state's general budget and are not specifically marked for mass transit or other environmental projects.

Still, he believes the high taxes have encouraged people to live closer to city centers and to buy cars that get better mileage.

"If gasoline was always expensive, you have to conclude that some of that had an impact," he said. "What Europe realized is they could steer consumption, not just raise money."

Others aren't so convinced.

Denny Ellerman, a professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloan School of Management, also noted that the rail lines were already built before the gas tax. He also pointed to the terrible auto congestion in cities like London and Paris, and that Europeans don't appear to be deterred from heading out to the suburbs, which require a longer commute.

Ellerman said urban sprawl, while not matching the extent of the U.S., is increasing. He said it has yet to reach American levels - not because of higher fuel prices- but due mainly to higher land prices and lower income.

As far as instituting a bigger gas tax in this country goes, he wasn't for it.

He said most everyone has to use gas, and taxing it would hit the poor the hardest.

Ellerman also thought there were too many other variables for a gas tax to result in lower wholesale prices. Supplier nations like OPEC could simply cut production, or other nations could take advantage of falling demand and prices in the U.S. to use more themselves.

So could a gas tax result in lower wholesale prices and the resulting transfer in money to the government from oil companies? "That's absolutely fantastic thinking," he said.

Find this article at:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/21/news/international/europe_gas/index.htm?cnn=yes 
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Plane

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2007, 12:42:52 PM »
Vice President Bush proposed this during the Reagan administration.


He was pilloried.

The_Professor

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2007, 06:53:43 PM »
Ok, but what do YOU think, Plane?
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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
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BT

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2007, 08:50:12 PM »
I would rather give windfall profits to the oil companies vs the government. They are more egalitarian.

Plane

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2007, 12:49:29 PM »
A higher price for gasoline won't hurt all that much , last I heard we are not buying less yet.

The harm would come from giving more money to the government.

The_Professor

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2007, 01:51:41 PM »
Let's follow a train of thought here, just for discussion purpsoes:

Let's say we added a $1.00 per gallon tax, the funds to be directed to <pick the acoount, Social Security, Support Canada, Give to XO's private college in FL, BT's "dark" fund, Plane's "I would judst love to get my piloyt's license but currently cannot afford it" account, or the Prof's "I am currently adding two rooms onto my home and the money doesn't stretch far enough, gold ole Medicare, Fatman's "Support Seatlle" fund, JS's "Eurocentric not Americentric or Die campaign", Sir's "I need ot purchase many newspapers so I cna get more comics for my AWESOME posts, the Henny "Support Amman, he's our Man" fund or ????)>.

Would THAT approach reduce consumption, thereby lowering oil prices, therefore lessening our dependence upon Mideast oil?

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

_JS

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2007, 03:12:51 PM »
Quote
Let's say we added a $1.00 per gallon tax, the funds to be directed to <pick the acoount, Social Security, Support Canada, Give to XO's private college in FL, BT's "dark" fund, Plane's "I would judst love to get my piloyt's license but currently cannot afford it" account, or the Prof's "I am currently adding two rooms onto my home and the money doesn't stretch far enough, gold ole Medicare, Fatman's "Support Seatlle" fund, JS's "Eurocentric not Americentric or Die campaign", Sir's "I need ot purchase many newspapers so I cna get more comics for my AWESOME posts, the Henny "Support Amman, he's our Man" fund or ?)>.

Would THAT approach reduce consumption, thereby lowering oil prices, therefore lessening our dependence upon Mideast oil?

First of all: LOL.

Secondly, my answer is "No."

Let's consider a few things.

Disclaimer: for my own selfish interests, if you raise it much more how the hell will I get to work? I mean, I already drive a car that gets 30+ mpg and I don't have much more I can cut back on at home! Raising two kids on a civil servant salary is not easy. Thanks to Americans general dislike for Mass Transit, we have no trains out here - yet (had to throw in my Eurocentric piece!).

OK, back to the point.

First, we need to take into account just how much oil the United States imports from the Middle East. According to the Financial Times the percentage imported from OPEC increased to a new high of 52%, but in fairness that increase was primarily due to Angola's inclusion in OPEC (and Angola is not a Mideast nation).

Second, Americans haven't really shown any desire to consume less petroleum. Unlike the British, who actually held Petrol strikes and protests - these were middle class, right-wing Tory voters! - Americans pretty much reacted by pulling out their wallets and paying more for fuel (and all the other products that higher energy costs affect).

Third, like indirect sin taxes the additional fuel taxes would have to be massive to change behaviors. Taxes on tobacco and alcohol have never been shown to change behaviors of consumers on a large scale. In fact, just like sin taxes, gasoline tax will only harm the poor and lower classes the worst as a purely regressive tax.
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yellow_crane

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2007, 10:08:14 PM »
A higher price for gasoline won't hurt all that much , last I heard we are not buying less yet.

The harm would come from giving more money to the government.



It is arrogant of you to throw around the word "hurt" as if it were some single universal quality that you would then presume to quantify (" . . . all that much") as a means of dismissal (poof).

How do you think small business will do with raised gas prices?  Big business will suffer (periodic fealty to the kings of Oil) but will survive, and they will gain because the pesky small competition is suddenly smaller.

The key element of Republican capitalism seems to be one of eliminating the competition with no overkill limitation.

Are you ready for WalMart World when all the other guys are gone?

Here, locally, Publix, the major food store in Florida, makes little street corner markets and people selling produce out of the back of their pick-up trucks victims of local police harassment. They can sell, the thugs with badges tell them, but they must provide a portopotty in case the customers, going home but stopping for tomatoes, suddenly decide to take a quick number one or two.  "That's the law," they say.  They do not admit that Publix is behind the legal surge.

Nothing is above Publix.

The founder, recently dead, was a bigotted fascist southern boy.  They fought long and hard to deny hiring females, then against salary parity to females, and had to have their arms twisted to hire a darkie.

Know what I mean?

Wonder how close Cheney is in proximity to sudden new gas prices? 

Cheney more than any other man in America, in govt or out, is THE corporate representative in America.  Cheney is corporate america made manifest.  That is why, surrounded by a down-swirling flush of fecal corruption in the Administration, everybody, even reporters, do not hold him to account.  They do not hold him to account because they do not hold corporate america to account.

Meanwhile, very few items in all the stores are not going to go up as a result of higher fuel prices. 

The three top oil companies in America made a combined total profit of $72 billion last year.

Doesn't hurt them.  Maybe that's who you were talking about?












Xavier_Onassis

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2007, 10:24:47 PM »
No matter how awful Publix is, the alternative Winn-Dixie, is worse. Worse store brands, higher prices, and a tendency to price stuff 79¢ on the shelf and 99¢ in the register computer. If you dare protest getting swindled out of that 20¢, you will have to wait for at least ten minutes for a price check.

Anyone who has worked for Winn Dixie and Publix, or Publix and Sedano's, Tropical, or the other numerous local markets will tell you Publix is better by far to work for. True, they aren't perfect, and every Soputhern businessman of Jenkins' age was a howling bigot.

Most of the Latino markets in Miami do NOT have public bathrooms. Winn_Dixie does, buyt they hide them really well in all of the older stores.

I don't think the gas tax is the answer, either. I would say that a windfall profits tax would be a good place to start, as would a =n accelerated program to produce biodiesel as well as methanol and ethanol from not just corn, but other more productive plants as well.

Even importing ethanol from Brazil with no duty would be better than what Juniorbush and Cheney are doing, which is doodly-squat, as Babs and Olebush roll in oil money like Scrooge McDuck.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2007, 10:26:34 PM »
The three top oil companies in America made a combined total profit of $72 billion last year.

And that figure still only represents a profit of about 10% - much less than computer companies or your typical grocery store.
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fatman

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2007, 10:39:11 PM »
Fatman's "Support Seatlle" fund,

Egads!!  How have I offended you Professor, that you would think that  would support Seattle?  I live between Seattle and Bellingham, up against the Cascade foothills, with nary a latte stand to be seen.  (Just kidding with you Prof, but honestly, I don't know which are the worse drivers, the Seattlites or the Canadians down from BC).

Plane

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2007, 12:52:48 AM »
A higher price for gasoline won't hurt all that much , last I heard we are not buying less yet.

The harm would come from giving more money to the government.



It is arrogant of you to throw around the word "hurt" as if it were some single universal quality that you would then presume to quantify (" . . . all that much") as a means of dismissal (poof).




If there is another dollar per gallon of cost the price will approach what it has been in Europe since twenty years ago.
At all levels of the public, business and government where fuel is bought the hurt could be coped with here as it has been in Europe .

A gallon of gas is still a bargain compared to its alternatives but the alternatives are starting to look better .

If we increase the tax on imported Gas ,but decrease the tax on imported ethanol (good suggestion XO) the effective government subsidy will be reduced and the net effect might be a fairer competition between the two.

_JS

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2007, 09:41:38 AM »
Quote
At all levels of the public, business and government where fuel is bought the hurt could be coped with here as it has been in Europe .

Europe is not a fair comparison as they have alternatives to driving an automobile. European mass transit is far superior to American mass transit systems. In the United States the alternative does not exist (or at least for a much higher percentage of the population) and that has an impact on the economics of the additional fuel tax.
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Plane

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2007, 10:08:06 AM »
Quote
At all levels of the public, business and government where fuel is bought the hurt could be coped with here as it has been in Europe .

Europe is not a fair comparison as they have alternatives to driving an automobile. European mass transit is far superior to American mass transit systems. In the United States the alternative does not exist (or at least for a much higher percentage of the population) and that has an impact on the economics of the additional fuel tax.

This is a chicken and egg question.

American citys that are hard to park in have public transport. Whwew the advantage of a bus is small the public prefers cars. Fuel prices can change this.

If the price of fuel rises there will be a greater demand for buses and converting a fleet of busses to alternative fuels or electric is not as difficult as converting a huge number of priviate vehicles.

_JS

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Re: My big fat American gas tax
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2007, 10:12:37 AM »
Quote
American citys that are hard to park in have public transport. Whwew the advantage of a bus is small the public prefers cars. Fuel prices can change this.

If the price of fuel rises there will be a greater demand for buses and converting a fleet of busses to alternative fuels or electric is not as difficult as converting a huge number of priviate vehicles.

That is a possibility, true.

But you are talking about changing behaviors with a tax. My point is that in the present, the economics of the situation is not necessarily comparable between Europe and America as there is an alternative for the Europeans from their high gasoline prices (though their mass transit prices to consumers have increased significantly in recent years for specific reasons).

Predicting the behavioral adapations of Americans is speculative at this point. What is certain is that a significant increase in the tax will harm the lowest income drivers the most.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.