My big fat American gas tax

[Plane]

American citys that are hard to park in have public transport. Whwew the advantage of a bus is small the public prefers cars. Fuel prices can change this.

If the price of fuel rises there will be a greater demand for buses and converting a fleet of busses to alternative fuels or electric is not as difficult as converting a huge number of priviate vehicles.

That is a possibility, true.

But you are talking about changing behaviors with a tax. My point is that in the present, the economics of the situation is not necessarily comparable between Europe and America as there is an alternative for the Europeans from their high gasoline prices (though their mass transit prices to consumers have increased significantly in recent years for specific reasons).

Predicting the behavioral adapations of Americans is speculative at this point. What is certain is that a significant increase in the tax will harm the lowest income drivers the most.

I make this presumption based on the simularity of the situation in Europe , the cost of operateing a car is higher in Europe so they have fewer poor people owning two cars than we do.

I have freinds that can barely afford to keep their cars in repair and fuel , the marginal loose first.

[Amianthus]

I make this presumption based on the simularity of the situation in Europe , the cost of operateing a car is higher in Europe so they have fewer poor people owning two cars than we do.

The big difference, however, is that European cities are much closer together, and Europe in general is much more densly populated than the US.

Making mass transit work in the US is a much more difficult proposition.

[Plane]

I make this presumption based on the simularity of the situation in Europe , the cost of operateing a car is higher in Europe so they have fewer poor people owning two cars than we do.

The big difference, however, is that European cities are much closer together, and Europe in general is much more densly populated than the US.

Making mass transit work in the US is a much more difficult proposition.

With further to go , and higher fuel prices , mass transit will be more desired here than there because of our lower density.

There was a time when every American City had passenger rail service and "Whistle stop" was slang for a town too small for a regular service stop. We lost this and Europe didn't because we bought more cars.

You could still save fuel by rideing Amtrack between citys and renting a car when you arrived(or rideing the bus) , fuel cost is still too small a consideration to make many people consider the inconvience of such a plan worthwile.

But in Europe they never put their entire working class in cars , they will never miss what we had for a while.

[Amianthus]

There was a time when every American City had passenger rail service and "Whistle stop" was slang for a town too small for a regular service stop. We lost this and Europe didn't because we bought more cars.

This was never true in the west. There were many towns and cities in the west that had no rail service.

[Xavier_Onassis]

A gallon of gas is still a bargain compared to its alternatives but the alternatives are starting to look better .

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For the past two weeks I have been driving without a drop of petroleum fuel.

Sun Biodiesel sells for $2.89 per gallon, just the same as dino diesel (which is between $2.92 and $3.20 here in Miami).

It is made from Ecuadorean palm oil. My exhaust smells like a fritanga stand.

It seems to be a lot cleaner than dino Diesel fuel, too.

[Plane]

There was a time when every American City had passenger rail service and "Whistle stop" was slang for a town too small for a regular service stop. We lost this and Europe didn't because we bought more cars.

This was never true in the west. There were many towns and cities in the west that had no rail service.

What was the largest city you know of that suffered from having no rail connection in the 40's?

 The point is still valid as stated even if I am wrong about the universal nature of the service, we had a lot more then than now and the convenience of cars is most of the reason.

[Amianthus]

For the past two weeks I have been driving without a drop of petroleum fuel.

Gee, and weren't you on the "there is no choice" side of the argument that a choice exists for those who do not want to buy petroleum products?

[Amianthus]

What was the largest city you know of that suffered from having no rail connection in the 40's?

Santa Monica. They converted their rail station into a bus station in 1940.

The point is still valid as stated even if I am wrong about the universal nature of the service, we had a lot more then than now and the convenience of cars is most of the reason.

Granted. It was never universal, which led to the greater adoption of personal motor vehicles, IMNHO.

[Xavier_Onassis]

weren't you on the "there is no choice" side of the argument that a choice exists for those who do not want to buy petroleum products?

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And there wasn't, until Sun Biodiesel opened a month ago, and I saw an article in the New Times.

I have two Diesel cars. Most people drive gassers. New Diesels are expensive, older ones are rather scarce. I had to look at about a dozen 300TD's before I bought my wagon. Most were in pretty bad repair, being 22 years or older.

Most people have gassers and therefore no real choice. Ethanol is a blend, so they are using petroleum even if they are burning E-85.

It is possible, but expensive and rather inconvenient, to convert a gasser to start on gasoline and run on natural gas or propane. This is available in most of Europe at every gas station, but not here.

[Plane]

What was the largest city you know of that suffered from having no rail connection in the 40's?

Santa Monica. They converted their rail station into a bus station in 1940.

The point is still valid as stated even if I am wrong about the universal nature of the service, we had a lot more then than now and the convenience of cars is most of the reason.

Granted. It was never universal, which led to the greater adoption of personal motor vehicles, IMNHO.

Nope, the egg was first.

[Amianthus]

And there wasn't, until Sun Biodiesel opened a month ago, and I saw an article in the New Times.

Actually, there was. But the nearest retailers were too far for you to justify driving there (you wanted to save money). Which I pointed out was your choice, not a requirement.

[The_Professor]

see http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/News/GasPricesHighButNotHighEnough.aspx for full article.

Gas prices high -- but not high enough
A stiff tax increase and $4-a-gallon fuel could end Americans' addiction to gas-hogging SUVs and curb dependence on OPEC. But don't count on politicians to line up for higher taxes.

The average price of a gallon of gas is now above $3. That's affecting some car buyers' choices, as it has done whenever gas prices have spiked in the past two years. But it's still not high enough to spur the needed transformation of the U.S. auto fleet to much higher average fuel economy.

And that brings me to gasoline taxes, the one obvious measure that would move the U.S. to energy independence from the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries and substantially limit U.S. exposure to the political and ideological whims of the Middle East and Venezuela.

But don't hold your breath. Republicans running for the White House are lining up to take pledges for no new taxes, no matter how badly they are needed. Connecticut is actually rolling back its state gas tax by 5 cents a gallon to throw a bone to voters. Oh boy -- 5 cents! Ridiculous!

Democrats are showing no more courage, though they are talking more about the need for greater fuel economy. Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., a presidential hopeful, is pushing for carbon taxes on auto makers. But he has said recently that "direct" taxes on consumers/voters aren't (politically) feasible. So much for "Profiles in Courage."

MSN Autos: Find the cheapest gas near you
Conversations I have had with congressional staffers and one prominent Democratic congressman tell me that polling data going back to the 1980s shows that no tax increase would be more unpopular with voters than a gas-tax increase.

It's working for Europe
Europe has an average fuel economy for its new-car fleet of more than 40 miles per gallon. The European Union years ago amassed support among members for high taxes on gasoline, which drove a swift migration from big cars to smaller cars and to diesel fuel. The result: less dependency on OPEC and cleaner air in the cities.

A congressional staffer told me that to get a gas-tax increase across to the American voter, the president would have to drive a bipartisan effort, with the Democratic and Republican leadership of Congress standing behind him as he addressed the country in a series of speeches explaining the need for a higher gasoline tax, and that both parties would have to sign an agreement that neither side would use the tax against the other party in ads or rhetoric.

[BT]

This debate is much like the debate on taxing internet sales. Bottom line is the states and the fed are looking for additional revenue sources without having to provide a service to earn it.

You can dress a pig up and paint it with lipstick, but in the end it is still a pig.

you want a tax on gasoline. make it 25 cents per gallon and earmark it as a prize for the developer of the best alternative energy solution. ANd for petes sakes bring nuclear energy back on to the grid. That is if you want to be like europe.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Actually, there was. But the nearest retailers were too far for you to justify driving there (you wanted to save money). Which I pointed out was your choice, not a requirement.

Actually. there wasn't,  because the nearest seller of biodiesel was in Jacksonville, which is a one-tank roundtrip from here.

[Amianthus]

Actually. there wasn't,  because the nearest seller of biodiesel was in Jacksonville, which is a one-tank roundtrip from here.

You're in the Miami area, aren't you? There are retailers all over the area. Here is an article from a Miami source two years ago talking about the increased availability of biodiesel in the Miami area, driven mostly by boating enthusiasts. So, I would guess that it would be readily available around the various ports. I also found listing for a variety of retailers all over the state, one in Hialeah Gardens, which should also be in your area.

http://www.sailmiami.com/magazine/boating_news/biodiesel_sofla_boating05.shtml