Libertarianism in One Country

[Religious Dick]

That isn't culture and customs, that is political philosophy.

Well, obviously your cultural values are going to shape your conception of what your political institutions should be. I'd point to a heavily Scandinavian Minnesota as an example.

There aren't any customs or culture you are afraid of losing?

From Mexicans? No. I'd worry about that if we were bordering a radical Muslim country. I'm referring to "culture" as a set of shared assumptions and standards, not superficial things like whether you celebrate Cinco de Mayo or the 4th of July. There's nothing in Latin cultures that's inherently mutually exclusive with Anglo-European culture.

Maybe some time I'll explain that in depth, but I don't really have time  right now.

[Universe Prince]

If the migrants were not provideing themseves at bargan rates the system as it is would fall apart.

It would change, not fall apart. The market is not so fragile as that, but it is adaptable.

If the migrants chose to obey these rediculous laws the law would have to be changed .

Which laws? The immigration laws? And why would they have to be changed? I'm trying to understand what you're saying, but you're leaving me very little with which to work.

The migrants need a union, without an organisation thay as a group are powerless and as individuals are highly exploitable .

Uh, no. The notion that every social problem needs an authoritarian, top-down plan to solve it is simply not true. They, like most other people in the country, need government to stop getting in their way.

[Plane]

If the migrants were not provideing themseves at bargan rates the system as it is would fall apart.

It would change, not fall apart. The market is not so fragile as that, but it is adaptable.

We agree then, the system as it is depends on the avalibility of Illeagal workers who are practicly all blackmailed , if they were not here as illeaals the system wouldbe forced to change.

If the migrants chose to obey these rediculous laws the law would have to be changed .

Which laws? The immigration laws? And why would they have to be changed? I'm trying to understand what you're saying, but you're leaving me very little with which to work.

If they all packed up and went home and stopped comeing here in obedience to the law as it is it would amount to the largest strike in all history. Do we really keep track of how much we depend on them?
The law is badly made and not getting much better , I like the chnges that President Bush is pushing , but I imagine tat even he would call them too modest a change.

The migrants need a union, without an organisation thay as a group are powerless and as individuals are highly exploitable .

Uh, no. The notion that every social problem needs an authoritarian, top-down plan to solve it is simply not true. They, like most other people in the country, need government to stop getting in their way.

Oh yes they do ,if a top down organisation doesn't appeal to them then they should get a bottom up one , but any way at all they remain helpless as long as they remain unorganised.

The government will continue to do the wrong thing to people who have no realistic represntaion , they won't be strikeing , voteing , benefiting from police protection , participateing in our society as long as they can be excluded and blackmailed into accepting it.

[Universe Prince]

We agree then, the system as it is depends on the avalibility of Illeagal workers who are practicly all blackmailed , if they were not here as illeaals the system wouldbe forced to change.

That is not how I would put it, but what the frell. I'm tired of arguing.

If they all packed up and went home and stopped comeing here in obedience to the law as it is it would amount to the largest strike in all history. Do we really keep track of how much we depend on them?

Ah-so. Yes, that is probably true.

The law is badly made and not getting much better

That may be the understatement of the day.

Oh yes they do ,if a top down organisation doesn't appeal to them then they should get a bottom up one , but any way at all they remain helpless as long as they remain unorganised.

They seem pretty well organized on protest days.

The government will continue to do the wrong thing to people who have no realistic represntaion , they won't be strikeing , voteing , benefiting from police protection , participateing in our society as long as they can be excluded and blackmailed into accepting it.

Wow. Nicely said.

[Plane]

The government will continue to do the wrong thing to people who have no realistic represntaion , they won't be strikeing , voteing , benefiting from police protection , participateing in our society as long as they can be excluded and blackmailed into accepting it.

Wow. Nicely said.

Hey ,thank you !

I am especially flattered because you set such a high standard yourself.

But don't expect frequent agreement , I think we have only crossed paths at this intersection.

[Plane]

We agree then, the system as it is depends on the availability of Illegal workers who are practically all blackmailed , if they were not here as illegals the system would be forced to change.

That is not how I would put it, but what the frell. I'm tired of arguing.

You probably would have spelled it all corectly.

If they all packed up and went home and stopped coming here in obedience to the law as it is it would amount to the largest strike in all history. Do we really keep track of how much we depend on them?

Ah-so. Yes, that is probably true.

The law is badly made and not getting much better

That may be the understatement of the day.

Oh yes they do ,if a top down organization doesn't appeal to them then they should get a bottom up one , but any way at all they remain helpless as long as they remain unorganized.

They seem pretty well organized on protest days.

  Can this be enough organization to take concerted action?

The government will continue to do the wrong thing to people who have no realistic representation , they won't be striking , voting , benefiting from police protection , participating in our society as long as they can be excluded and blackmailed into accepting it.

Wow. Nicely said.

That is what I like about a Union , and what I like about using obedience of the law to bring about change , this law is actually contributing to the deaths of migrants at sea and in the deserts , but enough are breaking through to support the situation as it is comfortably.

[Universe Prince]

The problem I have with a union is that union leadership tends to start getting into the same power plays that governments do. Raising dues at will to pay for this or that, spending dues money without really consulting the union members, trying to control who works when and how, all that jazz.

[Plane]

The problem I have with a union is that union leadership tends to start getting into the same power plays that governments do. Raising dues at will to pay for this or that, spending dues money without really consulting the union members, trying to control who works when and how, all that jazz.

I will admit this is true , I see it in my own union.

If the alternative is helplessness absolutely , I still want the big noisemaker that a union can be.

[Universe Prince]

Point taken, but the question that comes to my mind is: are those really the only two alternatives?

[Plane]

Point taken, but the question that comes to my mind is: are those really the only two alternatives?

Whatdo you have in mind?

[Universe Prince]

Nothing in particular. Just wondering if government abuse and union abuse are really the only two alternatives.

[Plane]

Nothing in particular. Just wondering if government abuse and union abuse are really the only two alternatives.

If you find a third alternative, what will pevent its becomeing a vehicle of abuse?

[Universe Prince]

Probably nothing, Plane. But that doesn't mean there is no better possibility or that we shouldn't look for one.