Author Topic: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution  (Read 6885 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2007, 07:42:48 AM »
<<I know that you have no more excuse to pick an anchient starting point for the development of Democracy than I do .>>

It's no excuse, it is FACT that democracy took a long time to develop, both the Anglo-American and other forms.  The example you gave of Japan turning on a dime is pure fantasy and ignores everything that happened there since the Meiji Restoration.  The idea that American democracy began with the American Revolution is pure BS.  These were Englishmen simply demanding the rights which Englishmen had in the mother country but were being denied to them in the colonies.

<<The idea that a certain race of people is too backwad to understand democracy is racist.>>

Absolutely.  But the idea that culture and its institutions such as family, clan and tribe, religion and history, do not affect current political life is completely wrong.  They have a big effect and can easily account for the fact that Iraq today is not ready to accept democracy.  Why on earth would you want to turn this into a racial issue?

Lanya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3300
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2007, 02:56:23 PM »
Going off on a tangent here, be warned.

Race (or more properly ethnicity) has nothing on tribalism.  Tribalism is much more powerful. 
I saw this as a jr. high and high school student, when our town was erupting into rumbles after school.    I remember a truckload of guys going by calling out, Are you a surfer or a greaser?  You could choose.    I was asked by a girl gang leader that same question.  I told her I liked to roller skate and ride bikes.  "She don't know nothin, never mind her."   WHEW.   
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2007, 06:18:59 PM »
You could be a surfer in Ohio?  What were they surfing, the south shore of Lake Erie?

Just kidding, I'm sure they were referring to style, hair and attitude.  Wow, imagination's powerful when you're a kid!


Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2007, 06:33:03 PM »
<<I know that you have no more excuse to pick an anchient starting point for the development of Democracy than I do .>>

It's no excuse, it is FACT that democracy took a long time to develop, both the Anglo-American and other forms.  The example you gave of Japan turning on a dime is pure fantasy and ignores everything that happened there since the Meiji Restoration.  The idea that American democracy began with the American Revolution is pure BS.  These were Englishmen simply demanding the rights which Englishmen had in the mother country but were being denied to them in the colonies.

Although Democracy took a long time to develop on Earth what is the point of insisting that each race re-invent it on its own? Should the Chinees be forbidden to have cars beforethey have a Henry Ford of their own?

<<The idea that a certain race of people is too backwad to understand democracy is racist.>>

Absolutely.  But the idea that culture and its institutions such as family, clan and tribe, religion and history, do not affect current political life is completely wrong.  They have a big effect and can easily account for the fact that Iraq today is not ready to accept democracy.  Why on earth would you want to turn this into a racial issue?

I thought You ahdbrought race and culture into the question , I have never denyed that any other race or culture is the equal of my own , why do you?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2007, 06:43:20 PM »
<<I thought You ahdbrought race and culture into the question , I have never denyed that any other race or culture is the equal of my own , why do you?>>

Read the thread a little more carefully, I brought culture into the discussion, YOU brought race.  So your question to me, based on the false premise that I was the one who brought up race, does not need to be answered.  (It's a "Why do you still beat your wife? question.)  My original question to you still stands, unanswered - - why did you bring race into this?

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2007, 07:19:07 PM »
<<I thought You ahdbrought race and culture into the question , I have never denyed that any other race or culture is the equal of my own , why do you?>>

Read the thread a little more carefully, I brought culture into the discussion, YOU brought race.  So your question to me, based on the false premise that I was the one who brought up race, does not need to be answered.  (It's a "Why do you still beat your wife? question.)  My original question to you still stands, unanswered - - why did you bring race into this?

Quote
How long did it take the English to get to that point?  You measure time like that in CENTURIES.

If race is not the reason that Democracy is hard to acheve, then it is just a matter of learning , culture is fluid, people learn foreign culture and adopt parts they like in MONTHS, DAYS or HOURS.

Persons learn nothing over the course of Centurys, if you didn't mean race , what did you mean?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 08:23:54 PM by Plane »

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2007, 07:31:43 PM »
I don't understand what you are quoting from.  The first two quotes I recognize as mine, the third I don't recognize at all - - however the last line of it is total bullshit and utter nonsense: "Persons learn nothing over the course of centuries; if you didn't mean race [as in "it took the English centuries to learn . . . "] then what did you mean?"

Obviously the premise that"persons learn nothing over centuries" is nonsense.  Each generation learns from past generations.  Persons living in any culture - - English for example - - benefit from what other Englishmen learned in the generations before them and build on it.  Each generation adds something, hopefully an improvement (although not in Bush's case, unfortunately) and the next generation adds its own contribution.  This can happen in any culture, although of course there are some whose accomplishments are greater than others.  I would not think - - and as far as I know, there is no scientific evidence that - -race plays a part in any of this.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2007, 07:40:55 PM »
I don't understand what you are quoting from.  The first two quotes I recognize as mine, the third I don't recognize at all - - however the last line of it is total bullshit and utter nonsense: "Persons learn nothing over the course of centuries; if you didn't mean race [as in "it took the English centuries to learn . . . "] then what did you mean?"

Obviously the premise that"persons learn nothing over centuries" is nonsense.  Each generation learns from past generations.  Persons living in any culture - - English for example - - benefit from what other Englishmen learned in the generations before them and build on it.  Each generation adds something, hopefully an improvement (although not in Bush's case, unfortunately) and the next generation adds its own contribution.  This can happen in any culture, although of course there are some whose accomplishments are greater than others.  I would not think - - and as far as I know, there is no scientific evidence that - -race plays a part in any of this.


"The English" learn what? "The English" cannot learn the French way of doing something?
"The English" must learn for themselves and can't learn from outside?

You are talking about race memory , which doesn't really exist .

Culture is a dynamic maintaned between individuals , individuals can learn multiple cultures , but "Culture" is not an entity that can learn anything whatsoever.

There is certainly no maximum rate of learning which culture cannot surpas in learning democracy.

Lanya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3300
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2007, 08:15:34 PM »
 <<You could be a surfer in Ohio? >>
No, no.  New Mexico.   
See, makes all the sense in the world now, doesn't it?
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2007, 08:45:04 PM »
<<You could be a surfer in Ohio? >>
No, no.  New Mexico.   
See, makes all the sense in the world now, doesn't it?

Yeah, it's sooooo much easier to surf in New Mexico...
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8020
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2007, 08:58:51 PM »
actuall it`s very popular to surf in these areas.
quite afew resort have wave machines so you actually surf perpetually.
the advantage is you can ride a wave much much longer than on a real wave.
but it does look alittle boring since your not gonna ever seriously wipe out.

kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8020
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2007, 09:01:04 PM »

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2007, 09:16:57 PM »
<<"The English" learn what? "The English" cannot learn the French way of doing something?
<<"The English" must learn for themselves and can't learn from outside?>>

No, every culture takes in something from others.  But some institutions, the courts or the legislative system, are much more resistant to change.  Many European nations learned the French way of a codified civil law, the Code Napoleon, for example.  The English did not.  They preferred their way.  National pride does exist.  Courtship traditions, ways of preparing food, lots of things are modified by outside cultural influences.  But the ways in which we are governed are a complex mixture of national or cultural pride, stubborness, inertia, vested interests, etc.  They don't change overnight.  Whatever your crazy theories say to the contrary, the actual fact is that solid democratic institutions are built slowly, one step at a time, sometimes with serious backsliding (as for example under the Bush administration as we speak) and always over lengthy periods of time.  If you look for example at Britain, you can see an example of a slow and gradual progression from Magna Carta to the present day.  Nobody came in with an army and told them, "Tomorrow you will be a democracy."   That's just nuts to think it happened like that.  From the end of the U.S. Civil War to the 1960s, the progress of black liberation was an almost glacial progression and that's in a country with a long, long history of democracy and civil rights.

<<You are talking about race memory , which doesn't really exist.>>

No, plane, YOU are talking about race memory.  Something I never mentioned.  Something that's not even implied in anything that I wrote.  You brought that up too, you own it.

<<Culture is a dynamic maintaned between individuals , individuals can learn multiple cultures . . . >>
The largest part of a culture is what is passed on and inherited.  All the other stuff amounts to ornaments and flourishes.  At least that is the case in the Anglo-American and European traditions.   The only real exception I can think of is in the explosion of the 18th Century Enlightenment that culminated in the French Revolution.  But even the great Revolutions have had to make progress slowly against ingrained cultural inertia.

<< . . . but "Culture" is not an entity that can learn anything whatsoever.>>

That's obvious and totally irrelevant.  Nobody is claiming that "Culture" can learn anything.  Certainly I am not.


<<There is certainly no maximum rate of learning which culture cannot surpas in learning democracy.>>

Well you seem to have a lot of faith in the Iraqis' rate of learning to take up democracy, which as far as I can see is totally unjustified by the circumstances of real life (as opposed to the fantasy world in which you apparently exist) and I would suggest is largely a product of your own unsurpassed intellectual arrogance - - although the Iraqis are born and bred in Iraq and steeped in its culture, keenly aware of their own rights and obligations under a system of tribal and clan loyalties and with some idea of how a democratic system would work in those circumstances, YOU, plane, knowing virtually nothing of what they know, have decided in your infinite wisdom that democracy is right for them and that they have to have it.  

You have somehow turned the issue of whether or not an American system should be forced on this culture of which you know virtually nothing into an issue of how smart or stupid they are - - they're smart if they see things your way and adopt your system, and they're dumb if they don't.  So that anyone who claims they don't WANT your system is, in your eyes, a racist who is claiming they are too dumb to want it.  THAT is arrogance, my friend, and furthermore, it's arrogance rooted in racism - -the unspoken assumption that your way is the best way and if others don't want it, it has to be their stupidity talking.

The simple reality is that you don't know enough about their culture to prescribe for them.  THEY know their culture, there is probably a better way for them to organize their affairs, but that is obviously something that they will have to work out for themselves.


gipper

  • Guest
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2007, 09:24:34 PM »
I'll put it another way. Having gone on safari in India and captured a score of prize Bengal tigers, we decide to turn them into sharks, dumping them in the Indian Ocean, where they flail and drown ... but it's their fault for not capitalizing on the opportunity we afforded them.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Some Iraqi refugees turn to prostitution
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2007, 09:30:58 PM »
<<I'll put it another way. Having gone on safari in India and captured a score of prize Bengal tigers, we decide to turn them into sharks, dumping them in the Indian Ocean, where they flail and drown ... but it's their fault for not capitalizing on the opportunity we afforded them.>>

I like that - - captures perfectly the fatal combination of arrogance and ignorance that has become the hallmark of U.S. foreign policy.  In about fifty years from now, when the history of the downfall of America is being written, those two words will figure more prominently than any others.