Versharfte Vernehmung

[Plane]

 The press has exaggerated a lot , the Koran thing was what struck the Islamic world as extremely offensive and as it turns out entirely unfounded.

The stuff you find offensive might not be fully true either , I tend to take news with a grain of salt when it is very politicly usefull.

I am not especially worried about the appearance of things itself , but on the effect that the appearance has  and on the manipulation that the appearance gets for the sake of political advantage.

[Plane]

Plane, of course I'm aware that Guiliani is the voice of many.   That is exactly why I say we are no longer the country I thought we were.   We are now committing horrible acts, acts for which people were sentenced to death in the Nuremburg war criminal trials. 
Just because there is a pack of dogs that is OK with killing a pup doesn't make it OK.  It is NOT OK.
And just because there are people who want blood and guts and gore and tortured enemies does not make them OK and it doesn't make the man who speaks for them OK. They are sick fucks, all of them.    May they see the error of their ways. 

I think that if you were more sceptical you might be happyer.

[Lanya]

Skeptical?  Of the  depravity  humans can descend to, call for, applaud, and appear to enjoy? 

BRING US BARRABAS!  BRING US BARRABAS!   

There is nothing new under the sun. 

[Michael Tee]

<<I am not especially worried about the appearance of things itself , but on the effect that the appearance has  and on the manipulation that the appearance gets for the sake of political advantage.>>

Well in that case I guess you'd agree that the APPEARANCE of dogs biting prisoners and the APPEARANCE that illuminated nightsticks are forced up the guy's ass and the APPEARANCE that hooded prisoners are wired up to generator boxes should be avoided, because of the "political advantage" that these "appearances" could give to your enemies, right?

And could you imagine a better way of avoiding the APPEARANCE of these things than (a) not doing them in the first place, (b) maintaining all prisoners in prisons in the U.S.A. or on U.S. territory, (c) opening them to regular International Red Cross/Red Crescent inspections, including surprise inspections at any time and finally (d) -- - GASP!!!  actually observing the "quaint and outmoded" Geneva Conventions as if these guys possessed the same humanity as any fucking Nazi war prisoner?

just askin

[Plane]

<<I am not especially worried about the appearance of things itself , but on the effect that the appearance has  and on the manipulation that the appearance gets for the sake of political advantage.>>

Well in that case I guess you'd agree that the APPEARANCE of dogs biting prisoners and the APPEARANCE that illuminated nightsticks are forced up the guy's ass and the APPEARANCE that hooded prisoners are wired up to generator boxes should be avoided, because of the "political advantage" that these "appearances" could give to your enemies, right?

And could you imagine a better way of avoiding the APPEARANCE of these things than (a) not doing them in the first place, (b) maintaining all prisoners in prisons in the U.S.A. or on U.S. territory, (c) opening them to regular International Red Cross/Red Crescent inspections, including surprise inspections at any time and finally (d) -- - GASP!!!  actually observing the "quaint and outmoded" Geneva Conventions as if these guys possessed the same humanity as any fucking Nazi war prisoner?

just askin

Several of the things you have just mentioned have already been prosecuted and the results were lost careers or imprisonment .

That is about the best that can be done .
I know that you suffer the illusion that Prescient Bush could know the guilt of each malcreat and order them shot , but h is not omniscient and not authorized to order an execution witout trial.

Everything FDR ever did to ensure the good treatment of prisoners and innocent bystanders President Bush did but more.

[Plane]

Skeptical?  Of the  depravity  humans can descend to, call for, applaud, and appear to enjoy? 

BRING US BARRABAS!  BRING US BARRABAS!   

There is nothing new under the sun. 

Now I am sure that if you were more sceptical you would be happyer.
Our military is no more depraved than any other ever was , probly less.
Our present leadrship is doing no less to encourage good behavior than any previous one.

You are drinking the propaganda as if from a fire hose.
It is just not possible that it is ALL true.

[Michael Tee]

<<Several of the things you have just mentioned have already been prosecuted and the results were lost careers or imprisonment .>>

For offences that drew death penalties at Nuremburg

<<That is about the best that can be done . >>

Yeah, from a party that can push legislation authorizing detention without trial but can't legislate death for torturers and murderers.

<<I know that you suffer the illusion that Prescient Bush could know the guilt of each malcreat and order them shot >>

I know he could press hard for a law with teeth that WOULD carry a death penalty for torture, I know he never has, despite the obvious need, I know he never will, and I know WHY he never has and never will

<<, but h is not omniscient>>

Excuse me, did I ever claim that Bush was omniscient?  moi?

<< and not authorized to order an execution witout trial.>>

and has never been asked to do so, by me or anyone else I'm aware of.

<<Everything FDR ever did to ensure the good treatment of prisoners and innocent bystanders President Bush did but more.>>

Why would you say such a thing when you know it's not true?  You yourself saw the figures on how many American servicemen were executed for rape and murder in WWII.  You haven't been able to point to one WWII case like Abu Ghraib and it's absurd to speculate that shit like that could have gone down and been kept secret for 62 years, given the millions of men who served.  All you could come up with was speculation that somebody, somewhere "punched" a Nazi.  What an absurd comparison.

[Plane]

<<Everything FDR ever did to ensure the good treatment of prisoners and innocent bystanders President Bush did but more.>>

Why would you say such a thing when you know it's not true?  You yourself saw the figures on how many American servicemen were executed for rape and murder in WWII.

[][][][][][][][][]][][][][]][][][][][]


Could you show me that again?

I do not remember you showing me one, or a link to one.

Perhaps I missed something.


Never the less , I hereby contend tht FDR did nothing at all to encourage good behavior on the part of US soldiers that President Bush has not also done or surpassed.

[Plane]

<<I know that you suffer the illusion that Prescient Bush could know the guilt of each malcreat and order them shot >>

I know he could press hard for a law with teeth that WOULD carry a death penalty for torture, I know he never has, despite the obvious need, I know he never will, and I know WHY he never has and never will

This is already present in the UCMJ.

The main diffrence between the UCMJ and the earlyer laws reguarding the military is that the authoity of commanders to dispense ustice with out review is less.

[Plane]

"You haven't been able to point to one WWII case like Abu Ghraib and it's absurd to speculate that shit like that could have gone down and been kept secret for 62 years, given the millions of men who served.  All you could come up with was speculation that somebody, somewhere "punched" a Nazi.  What an absurd comparison.
"

Isn't the lack of prosicutions a sure indication of coverup?

   

[Plane]

"You haven't been able to point to one WWII case like Abu Ghraib and it's absurd to speculate that shit like that could have gone down and been kept secret for 62 years, given the millions of men who served.  All you could come up with was speculation that somebody, somewhere "punched" a Nazi.  What an absurd comparison.
"

   

I personaly know a WWII vet who told me of shooting surrendering Japaneese , and I have heard this from several sorces .

 I think Abu Graib is an egregious case and the prosicutions will take years . Other than the most egregious cases I consider the main diffrence a lesser acceptance of such things as the normal course of war now. One of the prosicuted cases is of an officer who discharged a pistol near an Iriqui to frighten him but with no other ill effect , I don't think this would have drawn repremand or even notice in WWII.

     

[Lanya]

Skeptical?  Of the  depravity  humans can descend to, call for, applaud, and appear to enjoy? 

BRING US BARRABAS!  BRING US BARRABAS!   

There is nothing new under the sun. 

Now I am sure that if you were more sceptical you would be happyer.
Our military is no more depraved than any other ever was , probly less.
Our present leadrship is doing no less to encourage good behavior than any previous one.

You are drinking the propaganda as if from a fire hose.
It is just not possible that it is ALL true.

Plane, what on earth are you talking about? I'm not talking about our military.
The people calling for more torture were from the audience at the last Republican presidential debate.     
If you think that torture is made up, that it's all really just fraternity pranks, then I'm sorry for you.    But I see how it might be easier to live with yourself, believing that. 
Show me what you call "propaganda."   I will show you the legal niceties that said we can too do this and the other thing, because that old Geneva Accord was so quaint and it didn't pertain to us anyhow, not now.   

[Plane]

Skeptical?  Of the  depravity  humans can descend to, call for, applaud, and appear to enjoy? 

BRING US BARRABAS!  BRING US BARRABAS!   

There is nothing new under the sun. 

Now I am sure that if you were more sceptical you would be happyer.
Our military is no more depraved than any other ever was , probly less.
Our present leadrship is doing no less to encourage good behavior than any previous one.

You are drinking the propaganda as if from a fire hose.
It is just not possible that it is ALL true.

Plane, what on earth are you talking about? I'm not talking about our military.
The people calling for more torture were from the audience at the last Republican presidential debate.     
If you think that torture is made up, that it's all really just fraternity pranks, then I'm sorry for you.    But I see how it might be easier to live with yourself, believing that. 
Show me what you call "propaganda."   I will show you the legal niceties that said we can too do this and the other thing, because that old Geneva Accord was so quaint and it didn't pertain to us anyhow, not now.   

How does the set of treatys between nations apply? Has Osama now signed them? Are they puting on uniforms and carrying military IDs?

Under the Geneva treaty ,every combatant we have caught so far that was not wearing a uniform should be shot.
Under the Geneva treatys we should be holding the all without trial for the duration of the war , if not sooting them for being out of uniform.

I think I would like the enforcement of the Geneva treatys on these people better than you would.

One of the most eregious examples of propaganda I know about is the story about the guards at Guntanimo showing disrespect to copys of the Koran. That wasenough to cause riots around the world and these riots killed dozens but of course there was nothing to it. The effect desired was the riots so I imagine , and I imagine the author of the roumor was pleased.  I also imagine this author ro be conteplateing further fiction.

Some of the worst examples of abuse by Americans have lead to prosictions , some minor ones too, so what do you want to happen ? MT reccomends summary  execution , but I imagine you being satisfed with a little less. A lot of people are dissatisfied with the length of time the usual offender spends in jail here , should the soldiers found guilty of robbery , rape or murder overseas be reated more severely than the would be as domestic criminals?

[Michael Tee]

<<I personaly know a WWII vet who told me of shooting surrendering Japaneese , and I have heard this from several sorces .>>

Are you totally nuts?  Do you have ANY IDEA what those fucking bastards did to Allied prisoners?  I had a neighbour, they cut off  his fucking tongue!  My friend's 19-year-old uncle in Scotland was taken prisoner at Singapore, strong as an ox and three months later he was dead.  YOU figure it out.  My dad's cousin was a prisoner in China, he saw prisoners whose stomachs were exploded from the inside, dying in agony.  And you're wringing your hands because somebody SHOT them?  That was at least a humane way of putting them out of their misery.  

Anyway, I see you're back to your old tricks again.  A German got "punched," a Jap got "shot."  BFD.  Abu Ghraib, Baghram Base, Guantanamo, rendition - - these things are about TORTURE, you know, anal rape, waterboarding, dogs, suffocation, hanging by the wrists arms tied behind the back - - get the picture yet?

[Plane]

<<I personaly know a WWII vet who told me of shooting surrendering Japaneese , and I have heard this from several sorces .>>

Are you totally nuts?  Do you have ANY IDEA what those fucking bastards did to Allied prisoners?  I had a neighbour, they cut off  his fucking tongue!  My friend's 19-year-old uncle in Scotland was taken prisoner at Singapore, strong as an ox and three months later he was dead.  YOU figure it out.  My dad's cousin was a prisoner in China, he saw prisoners whose stomachs were exploded from the inside, dying in agony.  And you're wringing your hands because somebody SHOT them?  That was at least a humane way of putting them out of their misery.  

Anyway, I see you're back to your old tricks again.  A German got "punched," a Jap got "shot."  BFD.  Abu Ghraib, Baghram Base, Guantanamo, rendition - - these things are about TORTURE, you know, anal rape, waterboarding, dogs, suffocation, hanging by the wrists arms tied behind the back - - get the picture yet?

But it was safe to shoot them , we do not tolarate that stuff anymore.

If the behavior of the Japaneese excuses their mistreatment in turn ,  what is the problem you see in the present ?