Author Topic: on immigration and the rule of law  (Read 2808 times)

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Universe Prince

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on immigration and the rule of law
« on: June 01, 2007, 06:57:46 AM »
I've heard and read a lot of talk about the rule of law in relation to the subject of immigration. Generally the argument goes along the lines of illegal immigrants are disregarding the rule of law and granting them amnesty or doing anything at all that might make their situation easier is to flout the rule of law. And I am sure if you agree with closed borders and/or tight immigration control then that argument seems perfectly reasonable.

As one who does not agree, I have an objection to that argument. It is an objection that is bound to get me in trouble for what will seem like an unfair comparison, but I frankly do not know how else to make my point.

When people had civil rights sit-ins and marches and all those things that sent people to jail for breaking various laws during the civil rights struggle, that was disrespecting the law. And most people accept that now because most people agree that those protesters were protesting laws that were wrong. And most people look back now on run-away slaves and the Underground Railroad as doing the right thing because most people agree that laws allowing slavery were unjust.

I can almost hear the knee-jerks and the angry protests already. But the immigrants are not slaves! But there is nothing racist about opposing immigration! Calm down. I'm not making direct comparisons. I'm just pointing out some of the more obvious situations where breaking the law has become considered not only the right thing to do but also something brave. Yes, I know the immigration situation is not something we can correlate to slavery or civil rights, and I'm not trying to do so.

Prohibition was the law of the land once. It was an amendment to the Constitution no less. And it was repealed. Did repealing it "reward" those who wanted to break the law? Or was it a necessary correction for a bad law?

The argument that we cannot repeal our immigration laws or do something that results in an easier time for immigrants who entered the country illegally because it flouts the rule or law or rewards law breakers, well, it seems a like a very shallow argument to me. Yes, I know, we can't go around rewarding thieves and rapists for breaking the law. But we're not talking about thieves or rapists. Being for repealing immigration laws or helping immigrants currently here illegally does not mean being for the break down of the rule of law. It does not mean the next step is giving murderers and burglars a free pass.

The point here is not to compare the immigration situation to slavery or to say that anti-immigration folks are racists. The point is that unjust laws can be opposed and changed without a disregard for the rule of law.

Supporting open borders isn't about flouting the rule of law or desiring chaos. I think (and hope) I don't need to make the argument that the rule of law is no good if the laws are not just. That argument has been made by people smarter and more eloquent than I am. Yes, we can change the laws without disregarding the rule of law. Yes, we can do something the benefits people unjustly burdened by a bad law without creating anarchy. Yes, people can argue for freer immigration and still be arguing for what they believe is right both toward our laws and our societal order.

So I'm just not buying the argument that legal changes which grant "amnesty" to illegal immigrants or make immigration easier disregard or flout the rule of law. And I don't buy that such changes reward lawbreakers. To remove punishment for something people should be free to do in the first place is not a reward.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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BT

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2007, 12:47:18 AM »
Perhaps the easiest solution is to annex Mexico and Canada.

Universe Prince

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2007, 01:48:44 PM »
That is certainly an option, though I think Mexico and Canada might protest. Not that we care about that here in the U.S., but it should be done carefully, with an eye toward public relations just make the takeover... I mean, the transition as smooth as possible.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

gipper

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2007, 02:23:03 PM »
ONE way to look at the problem, Prince, but only one way, is to regard the (immigration) law as addressing a situation that no longer exists: a queue of 12-20 million (illegal) resident aliens certainly was not in the contemplation of the Congress that put the extant immigration laws on the books. Eschewing formalist (literalist) impulses and instead viewing the law as at least somewhat organic and responsive to "offline" realities beyond the exact words of the statute, given the right circumstances and "dance of homage" to the "gods of law," an "amnesty" program may be just what the (legal) god's messengers deliver to us.

BT

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2007, 03:19:53 PM »
That is certainly an option, though I think Mexico and Canada might protest. Not that we care about that here in the U.S., but it should be done carefully, with an eye toward public relations just make the takeover... I mean, the transition as smooth as possible.

We are half way there with NAFTA, take it a couple steps further and we will be like the EU. A merger of the three nations would make sense at that point.

Universe Prince

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2007, 06:57:23 PM »
Some folks have argued that NAFTA should have resulted in free, or at least much less restricted, immigration between Mexico, U.S. and Canada.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2007, 07:49:32 PM »

given the right circumstances and "dance of homage" to the "gods of law," an "amnesty" program may be just what the (legal) god's messengers deliver to us.


Leaving us all in need of a (legal) (Kevin Sorbo version of) "Hercules" to come defend us from the (paternalistic) whims of the "gods of law".
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

gipper

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2007, 07:52:48 PM »
Sure, kid.

BT

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2007, 09:04:14 PM »
Quote
Some folks have argued that NAFTA should have resulted in free, or at least much less restricted, immigration between Mexico, U.S. and Canada.

They would have been wrong.

Free trade is not synomynous with no immigration policy.


The_Professor

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2007, 09:21:34 PM »
Perhaps the easiest solution is to annex Mexico and Canada.

OK to Canada but Mexico is simply too much trouble. Many of the provinces are in a state of anarchy.

What would Mexico add to the picture?
***************************
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BT

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2007, 09:26:54 PM »
If Mexico's legal system were similar to ours it wouldn't be that bad a place to retire.


Universe Prince

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2007, 11:25:18 PM »

Free trade is not synomynous with no immigration policy.


I don't believe I said "no immigration policy." The idea, as I understand it, is to apply NAFTA to trade in labor as well as to trade in goods. This seems a reasonable proposal to me.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2007, 12:17:17 AM »
Quote
I don't believe I said "no immigration policy." The idea, as I understand it, is to apply NAFTA to trade in labor as well as to trade in goods. This seems a reasonable proposal to me.

The best Nafta has done is to try to set standards for labor in the respective members countries. Vincente Fox proposed freer labor movement but that idea was shelved when 9-11 occurred.

Perhaps some people are confusing ideals with the reality of what was agreed upon.
.

Universe Prince

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2007, 12:33:57 AM »
Or they are just arguing that what applies to the one should apply to the other.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: on immigration and the rule of law
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2007, 12:38:35 AM »
Then they are conflating issues.