Contraception

[_JS]

With exceptions (time-honored but durable truths, referred to above), many rules are followed because they are rules rather than because of any inherent truth or goodness of the precept. Birth Control as taught by the Catholic Church falls into this latter category.

With due respect, I think that view misses both the truth and inherent goodness of the precept in question. Moreover, the decades since the moral authorities outside of the Church have accepted contraceptives have only proven this teaching to have been correct all along.

It does not matter to me whether or not Onan was a real person, that seems to be more of an issue for XO and yourself, and perhaps some literalists. The fact that it is recorded in the Pentateuch and has held a steady interpretation throughout Christian history (and I should add Jewish history), until 1930 is meaningful enough to me.

[gipper]

That's fine, JS, we can disagree. We can even revisit at some later time the issue of from whence flows morality: revelation, tradition or something(s) else.

[_JS]

That's fine, JS, we can disagree. We can even revisit at some later time the issue of from whence flows morality: revelation, tradition or something(s) else.

You know where to find me.

[kimba1]

all this talk about onan made think
how can abstinence be accepted ?
if the dude says no than a kid will not be born also.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I don't think the existence or non-existence of Onan is important: he surely does not exist in his former shape or form now. He was symbolic of the need for a man to care for his brother's widow, and for the tribe to survive. There was no Social Security in Hebraic times, and lots of tribes have  ceased to be because they did not have the tenacity of the Jews. No one still considers themselves to be a Visigoth, an Alan, a Pottawattomie, or a Gaul these days.

It's not that these people have not procreated; but as a tribe with their customs they have ceased to be. 

Without major medical attention, a premature fetus has little or no chance of becoming a human being.

I am not even sure that all births surviving is not an inherently good thing for the planet or the rest of humanity. There are too many people to sustainably survive now, probably, and eventually the birth rate will result in the collapse of the population due to excess numbers.

I continue to consider the decision of an individual to reproduce as his/her own. Onan had a right to not diddle his brother's wife, and any woman that finds herself pregnant has the inherent right to not give birth. It is none of my business.

[Amianthus]

Without major medical attention, a premature fetus has little or no chance of becoming a human being.

So, anyone that requires major medical attention is not human? Person on a respirator, for example?

[Universe Prince]

And if we're going to use Old Testament as our values guide, is ejaculation during sex something that makes the participants unclean?

No. The first clause is a false premise and the second clause is a an issue for Jewish persons.

Then why should we be concerned about Onan refusing to ejaculate into his brother's widow to give her a child? Yes, I do realize there is a history of using Onan's story as a reason for opposing masturbation and contraception. But if I'm supposed to care about Onan's story as a morality tale, doesn't that mean I need to take the Old Testament seriously about other sexual issues? We don't get to pick and choose what parts of the Old Testament apply to us, do we? I need a reason why I'm supposed to care about Onan spilling his seed but not that he was refusing to impregnate his brother's widow.

[Plane]

And if we're going to use Old Testament as our values guide, is ejaculation during sex something that makes the participants unclean?

No. The first clause is a false premise and the second clause is a an issue for Jewish persons.

Then why should we be concerned about Onan refusing to ejaculate into his brother's widow to give her a child? Yes, I do realize there is a history of using Onan's story as a reason for opposing masturbation and contraception. But if I'm supposed to care about Onan's story as a morality tale, doesn't that mean I need to take the Old Testament seriously about other sexual issues? We don't get to pick and choose what parts of the Old Testament apply to us, do we? I need a reason why I'm supposed to care about Onan spilling his seed but not that he was refusing to impregnate his brother's widow.

I think that a reading of the origonal is good to preceed all the later commentary , don't stop reading untill Tamar is finally pregnant.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2038&version=9;


 Onan dies  for being disobedient ? Or for refuseing to impregnate whether ordered or not?

It is not seperated out well ,but I don't see Augustenes case being all that strong.

[_JS]

And if we're going to use Old Testament as our values guide, is ejaculation during sex something that makes the participants unclean?

No. The first clause is a false premise and the second clause is a an issue for Jewish persons.

Then why should we be concerned about Onan refusing to ejaculate into his brother's widow to give her a child? Yes, I do realize there is a history of using Onan's story as a reason for opposing masturbation and contraception. But if I'm supposed to care about Onan's story as a morality tale, doesn't that mean I need to take the Old Testament seriously about other sexual issues? We don't get to pick and choose what parts of the Old Testament apply to us, do we? I need a reason why I'm supposed to care about Onan spilling his seed but not that he was refusing to impregnate his brother's widow.

No, you don't get to pick and choose do you? Where should the ability to discern what is and is not necessary to keep as such a precept come from?

It was quite clearly important to the Early Christians (I can provide many more quotes if you like). It was even important to the leaders of the Protestant Reformation. Yet, it isn't important now. Why do you need a reason, more than the opinions of some of the greatest theological minds in Christian history?

[_JS]

Without major medical attention, a premature fetus has little or no chance of becoming a human being.

I am not even sure that all births surviving is not an inherently good thing for the planet or the rest of humanity. There are too many people to sustainably survive now, probably, and eventually the birth rate will result in the collapse of the population due to excess numbers.

There are not too many people to sustainably survive now.

I continue to consider the decision of an individual to reproduce as his/her own. Onan had a right to not diddle his brother's wife, and any woman that finds herself pregnant has the inherent right to not give birth. It is none of my business.

Should she be told of the psychological impact of aborting a child?

[Plane]

[ Why do you need a reason, more than the opinions of some of the greatest theological minds in Christian history?

Because it is impossible to always agree with all of them ,they donot een always agree with each other.

They should be respected , and their arguements refered to , but they should not be considered as a barrier between our present selves and the origional  sorces as if their fewer centrys of sepration made their vision clearer.

In the present we can discuss the impact of germ theroy and the effect of genetic informatiom encoded in DNA ,this was preumeably information availible to God as he inspired the writing but not availible to other commentators untill quite recently.

Why did Juda praise Tamar?

[Plane]

This seldom comes up in our country.

Has a woman a right to exploit her reproductive potential?

Is there a limit to a mans right to refuse to impregnate?

This seldom causes a problem because men are seldm stingy with sperm , so this question is a seldom worry.

[_JS]

I think that a reading of the origonal is good to preceed all the later commentary , don't stop reading untill Tamar is finally pregnant.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2038&version=9;


 Onan dies  for being disobedient ? Or for refuseing to impregnate whether ordered or not?

It is not seperated out well ,but I don't see Augustenes case being all that strong.

You could use a better translation

Seriously though, it is not explicitly stated in the passage. Of course if Onan is simply being disobedient, then why aren't many others who are disobedient summarily executed as Onan is?

This is theology, not simple literalism.

And it remains that both Protestant and Catholic theologians agreed on this issue until 1930 (and moreso split in the 1960's). Why? Why suddenly disagree with nineteen centuries of teaching? Surely the Protestant churches did not suddenly get together and decide that Augustine all the way to Luther all the way to modern times were all wrong all along...

[Plane]

I think that a reading of the origonal is good to preceed all the later commentary , don't stop reading untill Tamar is finally pregnant.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2038&version=9;


 Onan dies  for being disobedient ? Or for refuseing to impregnate whether ordered or not?

It is not seperated out well ,but I don't see Augustenes case being all that strong.

You could use a better translation

Seriously though, it is not explicitly stated in the passage. Of course if Onan is simply being disobedient, then why aren't many others who are disobedient summarily executed as Onan is?

This is theology, not simple literalism.

And it remains that both Protestant and Catholic theologians agreed on this issue until 1930 (and moreso split in the 1960's). Why? Why suddenly disagree with nineteen centuries of teaching? Surely the Protestant churches did not suddenly get together and decide that Augustine all the way to Luther all the way to modern times were all wrong all along...

Yes we do,do that , as Prodestants we do not thnk that a commentator a century ealyer is a century more right.

Er dies for an unspecified disobedient act Onan dies and Juda starts to worry that Tamar is going to be a widow to all of his sons.

But Tamar has rights and is willing to do a desprate thing to have them respected.

How the star of this show came to be Onan I don't see ,Tamar is an ancestor of Jesus and Onan is a guy that passed on a chance to be in that lineage.

[kimba1]

Should she be told of the psychological impact of aborting a child?


this is one of the few subjects that I do waiver on the issue of abortions
in life their is very few one answers fits all
this is one of them
many women DO suffer getting abortions are this should be made public.(but not all)
everbody should as much as possible get full information
both sides only are guilty of pretty much being one sided of the story on abortion.