Cuba

[_JS]

I don't think I would call Batista a fascist. Indeed, in his first term he enacted a lot of pro-labor and welfare-type legislation (which I should note, despite US misconceptions, not all Communists support or supported a welfare state).

The Communist Party of Cuba even supported Batista after his coup, when he returned to Cuba from Florida in the early 50's. In fact, quite a few Cubans supported him because he had a fairly positive reputation. He ran into serious problems though as he became increasingly corrupt and the rural (and often black) Cubans saw none or little of the wealth that had come to specific groups in Cuba - mostly European/Spanish Cubans and Americans who took advantage of the corrupt regime and the cheap labor of the Black Cubans.

Batista became more and more authoritarian as resistance built to his regime. What impressed people about Castro was that he was very charismatic and intelligent. He was a lawyer and was running for a Parliamentary seat when Batista's coup cancelled the elections. Mostly at that time he was a nationalist and the United States interference with Cuban affairs enraged him (and this was not an uncommon view for many educated Cubans). When the US recognised Batista's coup as legitimate, it only made matters worse.

Certainly Castro made life better for the majority of Cubans, especially the Black Cubans, who had been exploited for most of their history. Education and health care was vastly improved and far more accessible to the public. He has also sent doctors and teachers to third world countries and helped in numerous situations and disasters. Opposing some real Fascists in South Africa (in Angola) was probably a good thing.

The problem is that his human rights record is abysmal and really cannot be apologised for. Cuban prisons are awful. The treatment of certain groups is simply terrible. These things will always taint any good that Castro has achieved.

[Plane]

<<Yeah, I guess if you consider being under arrest as "sheltering.">>

Nice try, but he's NOT under arrest.  From Wikipedia:

<<Luis Posada Carriles was released from jail after paying bond on April 19th 2007. >>

Can you believe it?  The guy ESCAPED FROM JAIL TO AVOID TRIAL in Venezuela for blowing a civilian airliner out of the sky, and he'ls allowed out on bond!  Hilarious.  And they're not "sheltering" this terrorist.  "Sheltering" would be if they put him up in the Lincoln Bedroom.

<<The US Fifth District Court of Appeals in New Orleans rejected a Justice Department request Posada be refused bail for entering the U.S. illegally and he was escorted by Federal agents to Miami where members of the Cuban community welcomed him as a patriot.[35]>>

These are the same fucking scumbags who whine about "freedom of speech" in Havana.

<<Posada was required to remain under 24-hour house arrest at his wife's apartment in Miami until trial, with permission to leave only to meet with attorneys or for doctor's appointments.>>

WHAT???  They didn't send him to Guantanamo with the other terrorists?


<<[edit] Immigration fraud charges dismissed
On May 8, 2007 U.S. district judge Kathleen Cardone dismissed seven counts of immigration fraud and ordered Posada's electronic bracelet removed. >>

I bet it chafed him somethin awful.

<<In a 38 page ruling Judge Cardone criticized the U.S. government's "fraud, deceit and trickery" during the interview with immigration authorities that was the basis of the charges against Posada.[36]>>

Well, what other means could they have used against him?  They couldn't torture the guy because that's against everything they stand for.

He is in the process.

The process of American Justice does not always work well , but if it gives about the same chance to anyone then its unfairness is evenly distributed.

I didn't like the OJ trial myself , but how can I demand that some diffrent process be used?

[Michael Tee]

I call Batista a fascist because of his methods and his subservience to foreign capital.  Allowing foreigners (Americans) to control agricultural production and turn it to single-crop export material was a virtual guarantee that the workers and peasants would pay directly in higher food prices for the profits of the latifundistas, most of which flowed straight out of the country.  Whatever benefits accrued to the working class by virtue of Batista's labour policies were more than washed out by his complicity with foreign capital and his refusal to nationalize the primary sources of the nation's wealth.

Loss of civil rights (freedom of speech particularly) is a well-recognized trade-off for the many material accomplishments of the Revolution, among them the huge advances in housing, medicine and public health, education and the moral accomplishments of national pride, international solidarity in the socialist movement and in the war against racism and fascism and the dignity of the individual.  So I'd say it's time to stop beating Castro over the head with the free speech thing - - sure it would be nice to have the Revolution AND freedom of speech, but reality tells us that is just not possible.  So get over it, people - - the Revolution is here to stay and those gusano scumbags who want the "freedom" to undermine it and ultimately destroy it will have to find that "freedom" in beautiful downtown Miami.

[Michael Tee]

<<He is in the process.

<<The process of American Justice does not always work well , but if it gives about the same chance to anyone then its unfairness is evenly distributed.

<<I didn't like the OJ trial myself , but how can I demand that some diffrent process be used?>>

Bullshit he's in the process.  If he were "in the process" as a suspected terrorist, he'd be naked in a freezing cell in Guantanamo with a rubber hose up his nose while "investigators" poured in water and asked him what his role really was in that Cuban airliner bombing.

[Amianthus]

Nice try, but he's NOT under arrest.  From Wikipedia:

[snip]

<<Posada was required to remain under 24-hour house arrest at his wife's apartment in Miami until trial, with permission to leave only to meet with attorneys or for doctor's appointments.>>

I guess you debunked yourself.

[Michael Tee]

MT:  <<Posada was required to remain under 24-hour house arrest at his wife's apartment in Miami until trial, with permission to leave only to meet with attorneys or for doctor's appointments.>>


Ami:  <<I guess you debunked yourself.[after denying Posada was under arrest]>>
-------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, someone told me "Go debunk yourself" and I did it.

He was under house arrest (as if that in itself were not "sheltering" terrorists) and THEN the judge threw out seven counts and ordered his monitor bracelet removed.  Sounds to me if he's incarcerated at all, it's now house arrest (if that) with no monitor bracelet.  About the minimal restraint you can impose, particularly on a guy who already broke out of jail once to avoid trial.  I'd call it "sheltering" terrorists, particularly considering how terrorist suspects were treated in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.  Or worse yet considering how they were tortured when rendered to other countries.

[Universe Prince]

Castro is an INTERnationalist, not a nationalist, as any Angolan will be pleased to attest.  He rescued his people from fascism, racism and poverty.  And the only people who lost their freedom of speech to Castro are the gusanos who want to stab the Revolution in the back, and bring back fascism and the Miami scumbags who long for it.  Tough shit.

Whatever Castro is, you are doing a bang up job of posting pro-Cuba nationalistic propaganda. The only thing missing is you standing in front of a giant flag of Cuba.

Castro did not rescue Cuba from fascism. And considering the poverty that by many reports seems still rampant there today, I'm pretty sure he didn't rescue Cuba from poverty either. And the bit about "the only people who lost their freedom of speech" is nonsense. If they don't all have it, particularly in the case of people being incarcerated for criticizing the Cuban government, then none them have it.

The really worrying thing in your rhetoric is how vehemently you place "the Revolution" ahead of people. Yes, I know, "the Revolution" is for "the People", but obviously "the People" is only some people. All others are "the Enemies of the People".

[Universe Prince]

The point was, why the comparison with Eastern Europeans under communism (the Second World) instead of the other Third World countries of the Caribbean under capitalism?

Hm. Maybe because of the communism?

[_JS]

Interesting that she didn't use the stats of the Eastern European countries that are worse off today.

[Michael Tee]

<<Whatever Castro is, you are doing a bang up job of posting pro-Cuba nationalistic propaganda. >>

Thanks.  I love Castro, I love Cuba and I love the Cuban people.

<<The only thing missing is you standing in front of a giant flag of Cuba.>>

I'd be honoured but I wouldn't deserve it.  Castro and his companeros risked death and torture for the Revolution and too many of them paid the full price.  They are the ones who deserve the honour.

<<Castro did not rescue Cuba from fascism. And considering the poverty that by many reports seems still rampant there today, I'm pretty sure he didn't rescue Cuba from poverty either. >>

I've been there twice.  I've ridden horseback in the mountains and talked to peasants who lived in farmhouses with dirt floors.  Met purely by chance, not Potemkin villages.  Their kids are educated.  Their health is looked after by mobile nursing teams riding on circuit by horse and mule.  They own their land.  The workers in my hotel owned their hotel.  I don't know what is this "poverty" bullshit people are talking about.  It's far from a rich country, the shower runs out of water, the hotel food was monotonous, the country stores have nothing on the shelves (or didn't when I was there) but I've seen how people live in St. Lucia and in Mexico, and my son's told me about Peru and Bolivia.  The Cubans seem way better off than the people of Mexico or St. Lucia and way better off than what my son tells me about Peru and Bolivia.

<<And the bit about "the only people who lost their freedom of speech" is nonsense. If they don't all have it, particularly in the case of people being incarcerated for criticizing the Cuban government, then none them have it.>>

Get over it.  They don't have it and they won't have it. The Revolution is under attack and its greatest strength is the unity of the people.  It is NOT going to be undermined for the sake of a few lousy gusanos.

<<The really worrying thing in your rhetoric is how vehemently you place "the Revolution" ahead of people. Yes, I know, "the Revolution" is for "the People", but obviously "the People" is only some people. All others are "the Enemies of the People".>>

What part of that do you find so objectionable?  The Revolution is for the People.  You are either for the Revolution or you are against the People.  To be against the People is to be an enemy of the People.  What is your problem?

[Universe Prince]

I don't know what is this "poverty" bullshit people are talking about.  It's far from a rich country, the shower runs out of water, the hotel food was monotonous, the country stores have nothing on the shelves (or didn't when I was there) but I've seen how people live in St. Lucia and in Mexico, and my son's told me about Peru and Bolivia.  The Cubans seem way better off than the people of Mexico or St. Lucia and way better off than what my son tells me about Peru and Bolivia.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. You make me laugh. They have hardly anything but at least it's more than those people. Wow. That is about the silliest thing I've seen all day. Thanks.

The really worrying thing in your rhetoric is how vehemently you place "the Revolution" ahead of people. Yes, I know, "the Revolution" is for "the People", but obviously "the People" is only some people. All others are "the Enemies of the People".

What part of that do you find so objectionable?  The Revolution is for the People.  You are either for the Revolution or you are against the People.  To be against the People is to be an enemy of the People.  What is your problem?

The problem is you've essentially said those who don't agree with "the Revolution" are not people. And if you don't know why that is a problem, then chances are good nothing I say would explain it to you.

[Amianthus]

He was under house arrest (as if that in itself were not "sheltering" terrorists) and THEN the judge threw out seven counts and ordered his monitor bracelet removed.  Sounds to me if he's incarcerated at all, it's now house arrest (if that) with no monitor bracelet.

He still has the monitoring bracelet. Guess you skipped over the part where the Dept. of Homeland Security is reviewing the Judge's decision before acting on it. It was in the Wikipedia article.

[Amianthus]

Whatever Castro is, you are doing a bang up job of posting pro-Cuba nationalistic propaganda. The only thing missing is you standing in front of a giant flag of Cuba.

Too bad Mikey doesn't have a webcam hooked up. I bet that he WAS standing in front of a giant flag of Cuba when he said that...

[Michael Tee]

<<Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. You make me laugh. >>

Laughter is good.

<<They have hardly anything . . . >>

I don't think you understand much about living conditions in that part of the world, which is not all that far from you.  You don't seem to be very familiar with squalor and degradation, which are the usual conditions of life for people in Mexico or the Caribbean.  The people I described have their own (dirt-floored) house on their own land, a good well with pure water (which is how we met) are well-fed and healthy and their kids - - the kids of campesinos - - are all educated, one of them at a university in Bulgaria.  They're hard-working and well-informed. 

<< . . .   but at least it's more than those people. >>

Well they all started from the same general level.  Fidel gave the Cuban people health-care, shelter and education.  They're not MARGINALLY better than "those people," they are substantially better.  Sorry that he failed abysmally to provide them all with 45th-floor luxury condo penthouses and Italian sports cars, but it's the best he can do for now.

<<Wow. That is about the silliest thing I've seen all day. Thanks.>>

Fuck you too.

[Plane]

It is kinda personal , if Bush had the same results the same people who praise Castro would lambaste Bush.