Cuba

[Michael Tee]

<<He still has the monitoring bracelet. Guess you skipped over the part where the Dept. of Homeland Security is reviewing the Judge's decision before acting on it. It was in the Wikipedia article.>>

I didn't skip it, I thought the Dept. was considering an appeal, but I never assumed they'd disobey the order while considering it.

[Amianthus]

I didn't skip it, I thought the Dept. was considering an appeal, but I never assumed they'd disobey the order while considering it.

If they're considering an appeal, one of the first things they'd file is a request for a stay on the order. No need to remove the bracelet to just put it back on again. Besides, it's not "disobeying" the order, it's typical government - takes 'em forever to get around to doing anything.

[Universe Prince]

I don't think you understand much about living conditions in that part of the world, which is not all that far from you.  You don't seem to be very familiar with squalor and degradation, which are the usual conditions of life for people in Mexico or the Caribbean.  The people I described have their own (dirt-floored) house on their own land, a good well with pure water (which is how we met) are well-fed and healthy and their kids - - the kids of campesinos - - are all educated, one of them at a university in Bulgaria.  They're hard-working and well-informed.

You make it sound like camping out. Unfortunately for them, they don't to pack up and go home because they are home. Of course, I also think you're rosing up the picture just a bit. But I have to question how anyone in a socialist country gets away with having their own house on their own land. That sounds like private property to me. Surely "the Revolution" doesn't allow anything so selfish and capitalistic as that.

Well they all started from the same general level.  Fidel gave the Cuban people health-care, shelter and education.  They're not MARGINALLY better than "those people," they are substantially better.  Sorry that he failed abysmally to provide them all with 45th-floor luxury condo penthouses and Italian sports cars, but it's the best he can do for now.

Adult male bovine excrement. Castro did not give them anything. As with any socialist program, the people are paying for it. As they say on the moon, TANSTAAFL. But anyway, Castro doesn't need to provide the people with condo penthouses or Italian sports cars or anything else. He just needs to get the frak out of the way of the people and let them get there on their own.

Fuck you too.

No, I'm not interested. But thanks for offering.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Castro was a genius at gaining power. Of course, had Batista been a typical Latin dictator, like Stroessner, or Perez Jimenez or Trujillo, Castro would have been executed along with his entire 26 de julio group. But his family had influence and his first wife's family had influence (the Diaz Ballarts, two of whom are in the US Congress, best buddies of the Fanjul Sugar Barons and Juniorbush.

Castro is a genius at staying in power. This is hard to do. Porfirio Diaz, Strossner, Perez Jimenez (Venezuela) and Trujillo couldn't pull it off. Castro has been in power (1959-2007) longer than Franco (1933-76) even.

But the fact is that Cuba is a very fertile country and they are importing SUGAR, of all things. The rations run out in a week or two, and if it weren't for people in the US and elsewhere sending dollars, there would be starvation. The US embargo is not a good excuse for why Cuba can't grow enough food to feed the people. Cuba is not overpopulated , and most of it is very fertile: more than any other Caribbean country. There is no hunger in Belize, and there only about 5% of the land is cultivated.

Castro has tried very hard to teach people to be more efficient, to the point of personally showing the entire country on a two hour TV show how using a pressure cooker for the rice and beans would save them time and money. But the regime has become tiresome to the young people and they don't pay much attention. Getting their hair done and finding complexion soap is more important than the job or the diet. I know this from talking with several recent arrivals, who came here to take care of aging parents.

Communism doesn't really work well in Cuba. Neither did capitalism. I mean fact e it: if Capitalism had been successful in Cuba, there would have been no Castro revolution. The most prosperous Latin country is of course, Spain, and what it has is a mild form of socialism with an excellent educational and medical system. Of course, Cubans aren't Spaniards, either. But it seems that a higher percentage of Cubans have become prosperous here in Miami than they would have done in Cuba.

[Michael Tee]

<<Getting their hair done and finding complexion soap is more important than the job or the diet. >>

That's unfortunately my take on them too.  The Revolution sacrificed everything for the young and the little pricks don't give a shit.  Well, maybe they should just wait for Fidel to die and those scumbags from Miami to take over again.  They'll have their 500 brands of hairspray and luxury soaps - - along with the torture chambers and the wage slavery and Third World living conditions that go with it.

[Plane]

<<Getting their hair done and finding complexion soap is more important than the job or the diet. >>

That's unfortunately my take on them too.  The Revolution sacrificed everything for the young and the little pricks don't give a shit.  Well, maybe they should just wait for Fidel to die and those scumbags from Miami to take over again.  They'll have their 500 brands of hairspray and luxury soaps - - along with the torture chambers and the wage slavery and Third World living conditions that go with it.

Which of these are they doing without now?

[Xavier_Onassis]

That's unfortunately my take on them too.  The Revolution sacrificed everything for the young and the little pricks don't give a shit.  Well, maybe they should just wait for Fidel to die and those scumbags from Miami to take over again.  They'll have their 500 brands of hairspray and luxury soaps - - along with the torture chambers and the wage slavery and Third World living conditions that go with it.
===============================================================================

People make about $30 a month in Cuba now. Rations aren't sufficient to feed the people. The main staples are rice and black beans.

I doubt that the Miami crowd will end up running Cuba after the Castro period, but it would be nice if the choice were not between capitalist oppression and communist oppression.

After 50 years of revolution, no one should have dirt floors. Everyone should have enough rice and beans and sugar. Cuba is a very fertile tropical country and should be able to grow enough to feed everyone. In East Germany everyone had enough to eat, and there is only one growing season in Germany, after all.

If you leave, they take away your papers, and you are not allowed to work ever again, though you can come for visits. If you paid off your house, when you leave, the government starts collecting rent again from the rest of your family. In Havana this is the equivalent of $28 per month.

There is a constant lack of toothpaste. The soap that is available is translucent amber-colored stuff that is used in Mexico to wash clothes and goes under the brand name "Nafta".

Cuba does business with China (they get the same cheesy electric stuff Americans get in Wal*Mart), they do business with Canada, but apparently the nickel and other exports are insufficient to actually allow anyone a lower-middle class existence. After 50 years, the period of sacrifices and blaming everything on the Yanquis should have ended.

If you were to go to the Dominican Republic, you would probably find that most people there are much better off than most Cubans.

There are some serious problems with Cuban and Cubans, and many cannot be blamed on the US.

[Michael Tee]

<<If you were to go to the Dominican Republic, you would probably find that most people there are much better off than most Cubans.>>

I've been to the DR but unfortunately did not get a chance to meet the locals or travel about.  That's because it was dangerous to leave the confines of the resort at night.  A number of Canadians have been killed in the DR and guests are warned to stay within the resort perimeter at all times.  In Cuba you can go anywhere.  We walked all over Havana at night, some streets were crowded, some not.  We were not afraid and we met very nice folks.  Nobody warned us against walking in the area at night.  We heard no stories of other guests being assaulted.  None.  In Puerto Rico we heard quite a few stories from guests in our own hotel (the former Racquet Club, I forget its present name, across the street from the El San Juan and about a quarter-mile down the road closer to the city) about muggings and robberies.  A guy we knew had a gold chain ripped off his neck and the robber pulled a gun on him.  One day we watched as cops burst into the pool area and chased a guy all the way round the racquet-shaped pool and another time walking on the main road with two of my kids, I saw half a dozen squad cars converge right in front of us and officers chasing a guy into the tall grass growing in a field beside the sidewalk.

It's total bullshit to claim that the Cuban people are worse off than Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans or anybody else in the Caribbean.  The only reason this nonsense gets posted is because the U.S. government either forbids travel to Cuba or makes it very difficult (I say forbids, some members of the group deny that it's actually forbidden) and because not too many people get to see first-hand what's going on.  If you want to know what Cuba's like, go to Cuba.  It's as simple as that.  Don't take my word for it.  Next vacation, fly down to Mexico or up to Canada and book a flight to Havana or Manzanillo.  Go ahead.  Get on a Secret Service blacklist.  But see Cuba.  Know what you're talking about.

[Plane]

<<If you were to go to the Dominican Republic, you would probably find that most people there are much better off than most Cubans.>>

I've been to the DR but unfortunately did not get a chance to meet the locals or travel about.  That's because it was dangerous to leave the confines of the resort at night.  A number of Canadians have been killed in the DR and guests are warned to stay within the resort perimeter at all times.  In Cuba you can go anywhere.  We walked all over Havana at night, some streets were crowded, some not.  We were not afraid and we met very nice folks.  Nobody warned us against walking in the area at night.  We heard no stories of other guests being assaulted.  None.  In Puerto Rico we heard quite a few stories from guests in our own hotel (the former Racquet Club, I forget its present name, across the street from the El San Juan and about a quarter-mile down the road closer to the city) about muggings and robberies.  A guy we knew had a gold chain ripped off his neck and the robber pulled a gun on him.  One day we watched as cops burst into the pool area and chased a guy all the way round the racquet-shaped pool and another time walking on the main road with two of my kids, I saw half a dozen squad cars converge right in front of us and officers chasing a guy into the tall grass growing in a field beside the sidewalk.

It's total bullshit to claim that the Cuban people are worse off than Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans or anybody else in the Caribbean.  The only reason this nonsense gets posted is because the U.S. government either forbids travel to Cuba or makes it very difficult (I say forbids, some members of the group deny that it's actually forbidden) and because not too many people get to see first-hand what's going on.  If you want to know what Cuba's like, go to Cuba.  It's as simple as that.  Don't take my word for it.  Next vacation, fly down to Mexico or up to Canada and book a flight to Havana or Manzanillo.  Go ahead.  Get on a Secret Service blacklist.  But see Cuba.  Know what you're talking about.

Cubns are better off because the police there are more in controll?

[Michael Tee]

<<Cubns are better off because the police there are more in controll? >>

No, Dominicans are better off because criminals have more control.  Mexicans are better off because drug cartels have more control.  Police are bad.  They are the enemy.  Police are the state.  The state is bad.  (Unless the state is controlled by George W. Bush, then the state is good.)

[Plane]

<<Cubns are better off because the police there are more in controll? >>

No, Dominicans are better off because criminals have more control.  Mexicans are better off because drug cartels have more control.  Police are bad.  They are the enemy.  Police are the state.  The state is bad.  (Unless the state is controlled by George W. Bush, then the state is good.)

I expect this is intended to be irony.

There are a lot of American neighborhoods that could benefit from more police.

This seems to be the Rudi Juliani side of Castro.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I have been to the Dominican Republic six times between 1980 and 1999, and never stayed in any resort, and never was robbed, either. Perhaps you were too cautious.

The fact remains that Cuba does not manage to produce enough food or basic commodities like soap or toothpaste, which should not be a problem on a very fertile island with a huge number of technically qualified graduates.

When it is legal to go to Cuba, I will do so.

I don't want my name on any do not fly lists. There are a lot of other places that I want to visit more than Cuba.

[Amianthus]

When it is legal to go to Cuba, I will do so.

I don't want my name on any do not fly lists. There are a lot of other places that I want to visit more than Cuba.

It is legal to do so, as long as you promise to not spend any money while there. There are days cruises to Cuba from south Florida for this purpose.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I would not go on a day cruise to anywhere.

How much could you see without paying for transportation or food?

What would be the point?

Being on a cruise ship is like being trapped in a mall or a casino.

To dock the boat, the cruise company would have to pay docking fees, anyway.

[Michael Tee]

This was the latest killing of a Canadian in the DR that I could find on short notice.Former Vancouverite killed in Dominican Republic
<<By David Wylie, Vancouver Sun
<<Published: Thursday, May 31, 2007
<<SOUSA [probably SOSUA]  Dominican Republic - A "well known and well liked" Canadian man who ran a popular tourist bar in the Dominican Republic has been stabbed to death, and an American resident has been arrested.

<<Mark Misner, 53, moved from Vancouver to the Dominican Republic community of Sosua - just east of Puerto Plata - with his wife Colleen three years ago.

<<The couple "made some money" investing in high-tech stocks then selling at the top of the boom, said Misner's brother-in-law, Shawn Madge.>>

This was a bit unusual because the killer was an American.  An earlier story from May of 2005 mentioned that six Canadians had been killed in the DR over the past five years.

A Toronto-area couple was murdered in Mexico late last year and a Canadian student killed in mysterious circumstances in Cancun over the Christmas holidays.

By contrast, Cuba is a safe, law-abiding place where the poverty and desperation that lead to crime are largely lacking.

Cuba's problem for many of the years spent under foreign (i.e., U.S.) domination was its monoculture crop, sugar, which was grown on land that could have fed the whole country and then sold for export. That was bad when U.S. corporations owned the land and pocketed the profits.  It's not necessarily bad when the land is owned by the people.  You are too focused on whether Cuba feeds itself with home-grown produce.  It might very well make sense to revert to monoculture, if that's the most efficient use that the land can be put to, export the sugar and use it to pay for imported food.  I don't know much about Cuban agriculture, but your mistake is obviously focusing on whether or not the land produces the food that feeds the people, rather than whether the people are fed or not.