Author Topic: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT  (Read 3925 times)

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Plane

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UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« on: June 11, 2007, 09:57:04 AM »
The welfare state is basically nothing but a cartel. The difference between this kind of protection agency and the standard monopolists to be found in the boardrooms of private industry is that the welfare state does not just benefit a few people, it helps many.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,445365,00.html

Michael Tee

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2007, 01:01:35 PM »
Thanks for posting it, plane.  It's a thoughtful article.  Nothing new.  Workers do have to lose some of their attitude of entitlement, work harder, forgo some of the rewards if they don't come from increased productivity.  They're competing with India and China.  You know, I'm an employer as well as a limousine liberal and it's not hard to see the coming crunch.  Some employees want to work less and less for more and more pay and regardless of how the business is doing.  (I just fired one of them.)  But I also see the record executive salaries and bonuses in large corporations and I think that's also gotta stop.  Nobody's contribution is worth more than five or six times somebody else's contribution to the success of an enterprise.  If it is, then the lower contributor should be fired.  Maybe there should be a law that no CEO can get more than five or six times the lowest wage paid by his or her firm.  And if he or she doesn't like it, then either the workers or the state should take over the business.

I think one answer is more protectionism.  In countries like China or Mexico, the low wages are due to brutal suppression of worker organizations that demand a bigger piece of the pie for the workers who produce it.  Why should we subsidize manufacturers who can have union leaders tortured or killed for organizing when we wouldn't tolerate that shit over here?  We have voluntary organizations here like Fair Trade - - I was just at a Bar Mitzvah two weeks ago where all the party favours were bought at Fair Trade - - that kind of thing appeals to 13-year-old kids - - but a voluntary approach is not enough to solve the problem in the real world.  There are plenty of selfish pricks (myself included) who shop for the cheapest bargain in big-ticket items (my bike for example) not giving a shit who made it or where.

The welfare state is coming under pressure and since it's the most humane way to organize our affairs, it must be protected.  I see two ways - - one, as already stated, tariff protection against manufacturers whose workers are terrorized into wage slavery and two, tax the rich so that more of the products of the workers' labour comes back to them in the form of benefits of various kinds.  We all have a relatively short time on earth and there's no reason I can see why anyone should be forced to spend it in a Darwinistic hell.  Competition within limits is probably useful, but social Darwinism cannot be tolerated.  We should be looking for financially responsible ways to expand our social benefits, i.e. one full year of mat leave, six weeks of paid annual vacation, etc., but I stress "financially responsible," meaning paid for by protecting our own industries and taxing the rich much more heavily than they are presently taxed.  I also believe we should take another look at state ownership of the means of production.  See where things went wrong (if in fact they did go wrong and their society was not brought down by capitalist subversion,) identify the mistakes and see how they can be avoided next time round.

Universe Prince

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2007, 07:30:38 PM »
Needless to say, I do not agree with Tee or Mr. Steingart.

Mr. Steingart has written a fine, pro-welfare state piece. But as I read it, I kept thinking he is complaining about globalization and all these people in all these other countries doing work without a government run social safety net, and yet he seems to be missing the fact that that all those people in all those other countries are better off now than they used to be because globalization has led to the creation of job opportunities that simply did not exist before.

He also seems to be suffering from the impression that only a government can run a social safety net. He neglects to consider that the welfare state being a cartel might be a bad thing. That he recognizes the welfare state as a cartel is interesting because he simply assumes that as a benefit. Once again we see government getting excused for doing what we would condemn businesses or even organized crime bosses for doing.

Obviously the main problem with Mr. Steingart's arguments is that he starts from the premise the the welfare state is beneficial to society, and so therefore anything that threatens the welfare state is detrimental. Of course, he is also talking about the German welfare state, which is more comprehensive than that of the United States.

Mr. Steingart also makes a false assertion when he says, "One can simply ignore the welfare state by ordering goods from countries in Asia that have no social safety net. But that choice is tantamount to a plea for lower salaries and against the protections our welfare state provide us." Poppycock. Choosing lower priced good from countries without a welfare state is not tantamount to wanting lower salaries or a plea against the protections supposedly provided by the welfare state. It is merely desiring to acquire something for a lesser price, which is actually a good thing. Possibly, however, Mr. Steingart's objection to buying lower priced goods from countries with no welfare state is tantamount to a desire to see people in those countries left with considerably fewer employment opportunities.

Mr. Steingart is partly correct that buying goods from countries without welfare states does help to defeat the welfare states that do exist. But that is as it should be. While he acknowledges that the welfare state increases the cost of labor, he laments people buying cheaper goods as destroying domestic production. I was tempted to accuse Mr. Steingart of not seeing the connection, but I think he in fact does. He believes that the welfare state is of such value that people should support it even if it means a higher personal financial cost to the individual. Mr. Steingart is either ignoring that the higher financial cost to the individual is going to make the individual more dependent on the welfare state, or that is ultimately what he wants to see happen. Either way, I am left questioning his intentions. I am sure he thinks they are good, but making people more dependent on the welfare state is not something that I consider a goal beneficial to people. It is beneficial to the state, and in that is the cartel comparison is particularly apt, but not to the "consumer".

Ultimately, what Mr. Steingart (and clearly Michael Tee as well) argues is that liberty is detrimental to what he wants the state to accomplish. Letting people buy products at discount stores is, by Mr. Steingart's accounting, tantamount to the gradual destruction of the social safety net. Which should raise a giant red flag regarding Mr. Steingart's intentions. I am not saying Mr. Steingart (or even Michael Tee) is looking to enslave people to the state. That is obviously not how he views the matter. Obviously he believes something should be done to stop people from acting in a manner that destroys what he considers to be a benefit to society. His motives, at least at an emotional level, are good, and I do not fault him for that. I am not questioning his motives, but his intentions. Does he intend that people should be made to support the welfare state regardless of their personal financial situation or personal opinion about the matter? His argument carries with it the implication that such should be done. Which leads me to see his argument as paternalistic if not condescending. He seemingly wants to decide for others what they should do because he has decided that he knows what is in their best interest even if they do not.

Michael Tee takes the whole thing a step further, suggesting not only protectionism (a burden to any economy) but also heavily taxing "the rich" and state ownership of the means of production. Apparently the cartel of a welfare state is not enough for Tee. He wants the government to establish a complete monopoly, which, again, would be condemned if suggested for any other entity. Obviously, I do not agree with Michael Tee's solutions.

Society does not need more government control. Society needs less. The more strict the government controls, the more oppressed society becomes. Because while Mr. Steingart and Michael Tee may not be arguing for the enslavement of people to the state, that is the result of the polices they apparently advocate. Yes, I know, they argue that people have a responsibility to society. I do not entirely disagree with that. The problem comes not from wanting people to be more responsible toward their fellow humans, but from trying to coerce everyone into obeying what one or a few or some people decide is the responsibility of the individual toward society. You might as well have a theocracy at that point, with priests deciding what morals society must follow or face the punishment because what you will have is a moralistic government with politicians deciding what morals society must follow or face the punishment.

Yes, I know, places like Germany that have extensive welfare systems in place still have a mostly free society. But, that is exactly what Mr. Steingart is lamenting. The freedom in German society of people to choose cheaper goods is resulting in, as the article and even the title of his book World War for Prosperity clearly implies, traitorous behavior. Of consumers who choose cheaper products made in non-welfare state countries, Mr. Steingart says, "In the world war for wealth, they are the most important combat troops for the aggressor states. Though they carry no weapons, they still destroy domestic production with their cold-hearted purchasing decisions." Obviously Mr. Steingart sees this as a war with a need for the government to enforce loyalty to the state.

The problem I have with that is that Mr. Steingart's argument is much more of an "Us vs. Them" argument than any pro-free market argument could ever be. Mr. Steingart's position, despite his apparently good motives, is ultimately a callous one that says "protect our own and screw those who are not like us." I cannot support such a position.

As someone who believes in things like the responsibility of the individual to help others, I simply cannot in good conscience advocate for the welfare state or the protectionist/nationalist attitude that clearly comes with the welfare state. I find I am opposed to it. What I support is open trade and the vast interconnectedness of humanity that comes with it. I support people building their lives with the help of people they do not know, not at the coerced expense of people they do not know. I support being a true Good Samaritan, because my neighbor (you know, the one I am supposed to love as I love myself) is not just the man next to me, or the person who believes as I do, or even just my fellow countryman. The wonder of globalization is that the person working in Taiwan who makes the egg slicer I buy, and the person in Japan who makes the calculator I buy, and the person in Malaysia who makes the remote for the DVD player I buy, and the guy down the street who bakes the bread I buy, and me, all of us are neighbors. All of us are contributing to each other, and benefiting from the exchange. No, all conditions around the world are not ideal. But they are improving. (No, globalization and free trade are not panaceas, so let's not bother with that useless tangent.) The point is that I believe in a responsibility to help others, and I believe that responsibility is not met by protectionism or government run welfare. I believe the growing interconnectedness of the world through globalization is a long-term benefit to humanity.

You know the old saying, "no man is an island". I think it behooves us to consider that we should not try to make little welfare state islands (and that is almost inevitable with a welfare state) that need protection from other people whose main crime is to be trying to make a living. To separate ourselves so is a lessening of our humanity. That is ultimately why I do not and cannot agree with Mr. Steingart or Michael Tee.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 09:27:52 PM by Universe Prince »
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Plane

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2007, 10:24:35 PM »
While I am not actally agreeng with either of you , I am not disapointed.  Both of you really make your case well.

What struck me in th article was how in the end the author semed resiged to the failure of the socalist state as  a model becauseof the great advantage the less socialist Asian countrys had.

China is not even socalist anymore?


I don't think he is right , I think that the globalised ecnomy will very likely raise the prosperity of most nations with the less socaiist gaining most , but as they become prosperous they are likely to give up some of their effeciecy and become more socalist themselves.

The growth of  the presently prosperous nations followed this path didn't it?

Michael Tee

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2007, 11:32:15 AM »
I think, reading UP's critiques of Steingart and of my post, that it basically comes down to a genuine clash of values.  UP seems, IMHO, excessively focused on liberty, and I suppose in his view I would be unduly focused on security.  Of course, security isn't so bad, so perhaps the stronger argument against welfare statism is to claim that free individual choice would raise productivity to such high levels that everybody would have security anyway and without sacrificing any of that precious freedom.  The best of all possible worlds.  But I think the problem with fetishizing "liberty" or "freedom" is that the concept is usually visualized in very simple situations:  Mel Gibson seeking freedom from the Evil English who only seem to want the right to rape fair Scottish maidens on their wedding night, Resistance fighters who want freedom from evil Nazis telling them to do terrible things to each other, etc.  Freedom and liberty from terrible and obvious forms of oppression.  What I found missing was an appreciation of the complexity of modern economic life, and "choice" isn't really between freedom and slavery but more in the matter of what kind of CD player I am going to buy and what brand of coffee I'll drink.  So he brings a word that's enhanced by all of the prestige that it gained in conflicts such as the anti-slavery crusade and applies it in the context of an economic policy debate.  I would think a more value-neutral word or phrase, as for example "broader range of consumer choice" should be used in place of "freedom" or "liberty" so that the subject could be discussed with a better understanding of what is really at stake.

plane takes the long view - - globalization, i.e. unfettered competition and unfettered choice, will produce more prosperity all around, but with time the prosperity will give way to more socialism as the newly prosperous seek to even out the bumps in the social fabric.

Fidel Castro once spoke of the "gradualist" approach, although he was putting it in the context of staying within or without the American orbit.  I don't have the speech in front of me now, but I remember it fairly well.  He asked, rhetorically, whether it would have paid off in the long run for Cuba to have stayed within the U.S. orbit, taken advantage of the Alliance for Progress program, and gradually built Cuban economic and social infrastructure without alienating the capitalist super-power on its doorstep, and his answer was, Yes, in the long run, it WOULD have paid off, in thirty years, Cuba would have achieved considerable economic and social advancement, and he would have had peace with his neighbour throughout.  But then, he asked, what was the price that Cuba would have had to pay for such gradualism?  And he answered, the price was the current generation of Cuban young, the six-year-olds who were just starting school at the time of the Triumph of the Revolution.  They would see none of its benefits - - they would go through schooling, housing, health-care and work-life exactly in the way of their fathers and mothers.  For them, the Revolution would have had no real significance.  And then Fidel asked, what - - or to whom - - were the responsibilities of leadership?  To future generations of Cubans only?  Or to THIS generation AND future generations?  And Fidel's conclusions were that the leadership of the people was responsible to ALL the people, that no generation could be sacrificed to the benefit of others.  And it was for that reason that Fidel had chosen to take his country down the path of Marxism-Leninism, that the Revolution would start NOW and no one would wait for the 30 years or more required for capitalism to manifest its benefits.

I think of that speech of Fidel's whenever I hear the long-term benefits of anything extolled.  Long-term is fine for philosophers or historians, but it's an abdication of the responsibility owed by the political leadership to THIS generation of the nation's young.  Regardless of long-term benefits which might or might not be realized from certain policies, the leadership has, to some extent at least, to live in the here-and-now.  If the negative effects of globalization are already starting to be felt, the time to start rolling them back is now.  Waiting thirty years for things to even themselves out is not an option.


Amianthus

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2007, 11:40:05 AM »
Waiting thirty years for things to even themselves out is not an option.

Then again, the "give it to 'em now" approach could very well sacrifice future generations for the comfort of the current generation.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2007, 12:02:06 PM »
<<Then again, the "give it to 'em now" approach could very well sacrifice future generations for the comfort of the current generation.>>

Possibly.  The choice is default now on one of your obligations and hope that the benefit will accrue to future generations, which means a certain default on at least one of your obligations and a possible default on all of them, with the best-case scenario being that you have defaulted on some obligations but fulfilled others.

  Or, fulfill your obligations to this generation and work at fixing things for later generations as well, which means a certainty of having fulfilled at least one of your obligations, a best-case scenario of fulfilling all of them, and a worst-case scenario that you have satisfied one obligation only and missed all the rest.

Amianthus

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2007, 12:06:03 PM »
Possibly.  The choice is default now on one of your obligations and hope that the benefit will accrue to future generations, which means a certain default on at least one of your obligations and a possible default on all of them, with the best-case scenario being that you have defaulted on some obligations but fulfilled others.

  Or, fulfill your obligations to this generation and work at fixing things for later generations as well, which means a certainty of having fulfilled at least one of your obligations, a best-case scenario of fulfilling all of them, and a worst-case scenario that you have satisfied one obligation only and missed all the rest.

Sounds like the exact opposite of the classic "sacrifice now for a better future" meme.

"Party hardy and hope the future works out..."

Guess it illustrates the difference between conservatives and liberals.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2007, 12:16:15 PM »
<<Then again, the "give it to 'em now" approach could very well sacrifice future generations for the comfort of the current generation.>>

Possibly.  The choice is default now on one of your obligations and hope that the benefit will accrue to future generations, which means a certain default on at least one of your obligations and a possible default on all of them, with the best-case scenario being that you have defaulted on some obligations but fulfilled others.

  Or, fulfill your obligations to this generation and work at fixing things for later generations as well, which means a certainty of having fulfilled at least one of your obligations, a best-case scenario of fulfilling all of them, and a worst-case scenario that you have satisfied one obligation only and missed all the rest.


If there were no Soviet Union acting as sponsor there would have been no benefit in the short term for Cuban socialism .

In a poor country there is too small a tax base to establish a welfare state , even if one taxes the very welthy up to the limits.

But in a country that has little but trys to attract the welthy with favorable tax laws ,employment grows .

(I like the policy of Ireland to encourage Artists to stay and settle in Ireland by taxing the income from art so little)

Full employment fights corruption as well as anything elese ever has , if the government of a poor country can inspire its population to get in the traces and pull in the same direction a lot of change can be accomplished , but there is a lot of superiority in encourageing volentary effort over enforceing involentary effort.

Michael Tee

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2007, 12:56:27 PM »
<<If there were no Soviet Union acting as sponsor there would have been no benefit in the short term for Cuban socialism .>>

If the U.S.A. had not boycotted the Cuban sugar crop, the Soviets would not have had to buy it.  Basically the U.S. tried to isolate Cuba and the U.S.S.R. threw them a lifeline.

The natural market of Cuba was the U.S.A.  The "Soviet support" would have been completely unnecessary had the U.S. not tried to sabotage the Cuban economy every way it could.

Michael Tee

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2007, 01:00:53 PM »
<<Sounds like the exact opposite of the classic "sacrifice now for a better future" meme.>>

There's memes and there's memes.  There's the "a bird in the hand " meme.  There's the "Sufficient unto the day" meme. 

This seems to be like an advertising jingle contest.  You think up the most derogative slogans for policies you don't like and the most attractive slogans for policies you do like.  Your opponent does the same for the policies he likes or dislikes.  And may the best sloganeer win.

Amianthus

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2007, 01:29:39 PM »
This seems to be like an advertising jingle contest.  You think up the most derogative slogans for policies you don't like and the most attractive slogans for policies you do like.  Your opponent does the same for the policies he likes or dislikes.  And may the best sloganeer win.

Which is most of what goes on around here, if you hadn't noticed.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2007, 01:54:50 PM »
Well, it happens.  I'd hate to think it was MOST of the content.

Amianthus

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2007, 01:56:53 PM »
Well, it happens.  I'd hate to think it was MOST of the content.

Yeah, it pretty much is.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: UP I crave your comment, yours too MT
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2007, 01:59:55 PM »
<<If there were no Soviet Union acting as sponsor there would have been no benefit in the short term for Cuban socialism .>>

If the U.S.A. had not boycotted the Cuban sugar crop, the Soviets would not have had to buy it.  Basically the U.S. tried to isolate Cuba and the U.S.S.R. threw them a lifeline.

The natural market of Cuba was the U.S.A.  The "Soviet support" would have been completely unnecessary had the U.S. not tried to sabotage the Cuban economy every way it could.


If the intent was to increase the drain on the Soviet economy and hasten the inevitable , it was a good idea to boycott.