Author Topic: Honest conservatives  (Read 8674 times)

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Lanya

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Honest conservatives
« on: June 16, 2007, 01:43:55 PM »
"Honest conservatives"

By Rick Perlstein on June 15, 2007 - 2:15am.

Brad DeLong, the remarkably erudite and morally penetrating blogger and economics professor, has been writing some very useful things about the question of "honest conservatism" - the understandable, if problematic, quest of liberals to find a conservative worthy of intellectual respect.

Here, he quotes the Slovenian philosopher Slavoj Zizek who speaks of "a witty formula of life under a hard Communist regime: Of the three features—personal honesty, sincere support of the regime and intelligence—it was possible to combine only two, never all three. If one was honest and supportive, one was not very bright; if one was bright and supportive, one was not honest; if one was honest and bright, one was not supportive. The problem with Dreyman is that he does combine all three features."

And here he reflects that the old Eastern Bloc jape " applies just as well to the Bush regime. Sincere conservative supporters are not bright. Bright conservative supporters are not honest. Bright and honest conservatives are not supporters...."

He proposes, thereby, a taxonomy. You might find it handy, too. I leave out the names. The names are not important.

    Class of 2000: People who in 2000 said, "George W. Bush is not qualified to be president, and we should be really worried about this."

    Class of 2001: People who in 2001 said, "I supported Bush in 2000, but George W. Bush is not listening to his honest conservative policy advisers, and we should be really worried about this."

    Class of 2002: People who in 2002 said, "I supported Bush in 2000 and 2001, but 911 has unhinged the administration; it's detention and other policies are counterproductive; it needs to be opposed."

    Class of 2003: People who in 2003 said, "I supported Bush over 2000-2002, but enough is enough. That's it. I supported the invasion of Iraq because I was certain there was evidence of an advanced nuclear weapons program--otherwise invading Iraq was just stupid. Well, there was no advanced nuclear weapons program. Invading Iraq was just stupid. Plus there's the Medicare drug benefit. These people need to be evicted from power."

    Class of 2004: People who in 2004 said, "I've been a Bush supporter. I'm a Republican and a conservative, but I've had enough: I'm voting for Kerry."

    Class of 2005: People who in 2005 said, "I voted for Bush in 2004. But I made a mistake. A big mistake."

    Class of 2006: People who in 2006 said, "I know I supported Bush up to last year, but that shows I'm not the brightest light on the clued-in tree."

    The class of 2007--people who are now opposed to Bush only because they think Bush will drag the Republicans down in 2008--doesn't count. Dead-enders who are still claiming that Bush is Teddy Roosevelt don't count. They aren't honest conservatives. They are only worth scorn, and fit objects for nothing but mockery. One just doesn't joust with them in honorable intellectual combat. It's not done.

    I say divide "honest conservatives" into the classes of 2000 to 2006, rank them by seniority according to the date of their public honesty, and use that as a ranking for who to read, who to respect, and who to promote as worthy intellectual adversaries. Refer to them using this citation form:

    Brent Scowcroft, Honest Conservative Class of 2004...

Finally, Brad runs a brilliant rant by John Emerson on the moral cunning of conservatives that eloquently expresses why we call conservatism "the big con." He explains how "honest conservatives of the class of 2007" - the ones who only thought to turn away from Bush when it became obvious both was destroying the Republicans and the conservative project and empowering the Demorats and the liberal project - will use the public's memory of Bush's disasters to, well, destroy the Democrats and the liberal project. And, most importantly, points out that the media will let them get away with it. Read it, tuck it in your memory file, and, two years hence, when President ClinEdwardsObamaTon finds him/herself forced to govern with his/her hands tied behind his/her back, remember you read it here (or, if your smart enough to read Brad, there) first:

    I think that when the "honest conservatives" reject Bush they're just setting up their assault on the Democratic president they expect to see elected next year. Their way of digging themselves out from under the Bush disaster (and obscuring their own massive role in that disaster) will be to swear that "Never again can an American President be allowed that kind of free hand!" This will justify their fighting the new Democratic President tooth and nail for every inch of ground.

    For example, Bush's politicization of the career staff in Justice and elsewhere was a very bad thing, no? And certainly this kind of thing has to stop, no? So we will forbid the new Democratic President to interfere with career personnel, with the result that all of the political hacks Bush put in civil service positions will be untouchable. (When that happens, can we expect the media to understand what's going on? No, of course not....)

    Now that they've stolen the horse, they're going to lock the barn door. It's just like January 2001: once Bush was inaugurated, the media and the Republicans decided that sabotage by impeachment and Gingrichian nastiness are really very bad things after all.


http://commonsense.ourfuture.org/honest_conservatives
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Amianthus

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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2007, 02:22:38 PM »
So, where do the people who never thought Bush was conservative fall?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2007, 03:04:49 PM »
So, where do the people who never thought Bush was conservative fall?

Precisely.  Does Lanya have someone else's op-ed to answer that one?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2007, 03:32:05 PM »
I never thought Juniorbush was conservative. I had him labeled as a sellout to Big Oil, a hypocritical Evangelical, and basically a doofus with an impressive political name who would do everything that the very wealthiest would order him to do, while sucking up to the Jesus junkies. Basically, he is a Ronald Reagan without the abilities at diction and acting.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2007, 03:42:39 PM »
In 2000, for a number of reasons, Bush was a better choice than Gore.

In 2004, for a number of reasons, Bush was a better choice than Kerry.

It's as simple as that.

I've voted for Democrats in the past, and when the Democratic party starts putting up worthy candidates, I'll vote for them again.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2007, 03:48:42 PM »
I never thought Juniorbush was conservative.

So did a whole host of Conservatives.  Didn't stop folks like yourself now flipflopping, when you were labeling him as some RW religious fanatic back then


Basically, he is a Ronald Reagan without the abilities at diction and acting.

Also minus true conservative credentials & principles. 
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2007, 06:45:36 PM »
I never thought Juniorbush was conservative.

So did a whole host of Conservatives.  Didn't stop folks like yourself now flipflopping, when you were labeling him as some RW religious fanatic back then


Basically, he is a Ronald Reagan without the abilities at diction and acting.



Also minus true conservative credentials & principles. 

I am so overjoyed to see you former Bushidolaters turn on him now that he might be a liability to your future tax cuts . It is just like the article says. Talk about flip-flopping! LMFAO!

BT

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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2007, 09:34:08 PM »
Sirs isn't saying anything he hasn't said two or three years ago.


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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2007, 11:12:21 PM »
Sirs isn't saying anything he hasn't said two or three years ago.



Nonsense . That woulda put him here: " Class of 2005: People who in 2005 said, "I voted for Bush in 2004. But I made a mistake. A big mistake." and I never heard him admit to any mistake . Ever.

BT

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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2007, 11:23:36 PM »
It must be frightening to realize that sometimes people just don't fit into your stereotypes.

Even all the evidence that Bush was not a conservative, some folks insist on throwing that strawman out there and then castigating those who simply voted for him because he was a better candidate than either of your parties paltry offerings.

Medicaid Drug Benefits, Tariiffs, Massive spending on eduction and amnesty for illegal aliens? None of them tipped you off?



Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2007, 01:00:24 AM »


Also minus true conservative credentials & principles.

======================================
The government GREW under Reagan. The debt reached heights never before reached, until Juniorbush.

Reagan was a grandfatherly hack.
Juniorbush is just a common hack.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2007, 03:18:42 AM »
Also minus true conservative credentials & principles.
======================================
The government GREW under Reagan.

The Democrats controlled the pursestrings that allowed that growth.  The budgets Reagan submitted were DOA, as phrased by then speaker Tip O'Neil, and didn't have any of the domestic pork barrel spending that's become a Congressional staple


The debt reached heights never before reached, until Juniorbush.

See above for clarity, though I have conceded that Reagan did sign them.  But they weren't his budgets.  And it's nice to see a hard core Dem acknowledge how out of control the spending was under the Dem led Congress.  And more importantly, perhaps you missed the consistent condemnations I've leveled at both Bush AND the Republican led congress, who were in control of the pursestrings, during Bush's 1st 2 terms


Reagan was a grandfatherly hack.  Juniorbush is just a common hack.

Reagan was also a principled conservative.  Bush isn't and never was.  Nor was he ever this RW fundamentalist you kept claiming he was
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 03:53:02 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2007, 03:40:20 AM »
It must be frightening to realize that sometimes people just don't fit into your stereotypes.  Even all the evidence that Bush was not a conservative, some folks insist on throwing that strawman out there and then castigating those who simply voted for him because he was a better candidate than either of your parties paltry offerings.   Medicaid Drug Benefits, Tariiffs, Massive spending on eduction and amnesty for illegal aliens? None of them tipped you off?

Consider who you're asking, Bt      :-\
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2007, 03:42:06 AM »
It must be frightening to realize that sometimes people just don't fit into your stereotypes.

Even all the evidence that Bush was not a conservative, some folks insist on throwing that strawman out there and then castigating those who simply voted for him because he was a better candidate than either of your parties paltry offerings.

Medicaid Drug Benefits, Tariiffs, Massive spending on eduction and amnesty for illegal aliens? None of them tipped you off?




People may not always fit in my stereotypes , but your ilk always does. Now you hate Bush when you loved him for your beloved tax cuts previously. You continue to prove your betrayal of your former Fuehrer at every refutation.

BT

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Re: Honest conservatives
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2007, 12:03:47 PM »
Quote
People may not always fit in my stereotypes , but your ilk always does. Now you hate Bush when you loved him for your beloved tax cuts previously. You continue to prove your betrayal of your former Fuehrer at every refutation.



Where do ypu get that i hate Bush.

Hate seems to be a liberal emotion, if you are representative of your ilk.