Author Topic: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’  (Read 10605 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

gipper

  • Guest
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2007, 04:35:32 PM »
Michael, you won't get a flat-out rejection of your critique of America from me. While I love this country deeply and profoundly, all things considered, my heart and soul are not empty of stinging criticisms of my own, which often mirror your concerns in outline but rarely in a full-bodied portrait. Our very roots are tainted by the treatment of Indians and the usurpation that followed, and by the scourge of slavery that was woven into a way of life for many and a convenient constitutional compromise (at first) by all others. The frontier mentality that won us the West still pervades our culture, having both salutary but also harmful effects, as "difficulties" (often other human beings) in our path of progress are simply so many challenges to be conquered on one's way to fulfilling his purpose. And that purpose, reinforced by a sanctified economic system exalting competition without much philosophical seasoning from humanizing principles like cooperation, equity, fairness and justice, for example, is deemed a sacred quest of its own. When these combinations, and others, are brought to bear on a problem to the exclusion of the redeeming, ameliorating or just plain virtuous things America has to offer (which I won't emphasize here), bad things can happen.

The focus here, of course, is Iraq. I disagree with you fundamentally that the  invasion -- at the time the decision to go was made -- was anything but a close call. Unfortunately and regrettably its folly is apparent now, regardless of outcome. But at the time of decision, laboring under democratically-elected and democratically-tested precepts and responding to a unique, catastrophic event signaling an insidious danger lurking in the world, on a balance of all factors, though I would now vote not to authorize, the decision to go was intellectually and morally defensible. (I have sketched some of those reasons previously and will not now bother to repeat myself.)

Horrible things happened on the way to "victory." According to my personal set of values, there were (are they ever acceptable?) unacceptable civilian casualties, and I include even those countless unfortunates killed by the insurgency for it was the result of a fuse we lit. There was the shocking spectacle of prisoner abuse following hard on the heels of a top-down (though clueless as to this) culture of toughness. And there is the insult, if it can be called that, of our presumption of influence and our exercise of prerogatives in what is the domain of other men and women.

But, through the lottery of history, we are now the world's only military superpower, its most dynamic economic engine, its oasis of freedom if not sophistication, the world's leader in higher education, the seat of hope beyond all others, and so on infinitum, which not only creates our power but also a certain responsibility. And that, in an open and well-educate society, is a self-correcting enterprise, and, duly chastened but tough, the salvation of the hopes of humans on earth, so long as our turn at stewardship lasts.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2007, 08:00:04 PM »
domer, you're obviously a very smart and sensitive guy, and well able to think for yourself but I can't honestly for the life of me figure out how you can see the invasion of Iraq as anything other than a cynical pre-planned act of criminal aggression undertaken purely for geopolitical and/or geostrategic purposes.  Like you, I don't think it's worthwhile at this point for either of us to set out our respective reasoning once again, but I do get the distinct feeling that you are willfully ignoring every single fact or deduction of logic that indicates the decision was anything other than an agonized soul-searching based on a consideration of the best available "intel" at the time, a.k.a. "the sirs explanation." 

<<But, through the lottery of history, we are now the world's only military superpower, its most dynamic economic engine, its oasis of freedom if not sophistication, the world's leader in higher education, the seat of hope beyond all others, and so on infinitum . . . >>

But surely you must realize how temporary most of all that must be.  If you were to graph the US's "predominance" from 1989 to date, I think you'd see a steady slippage in the percentage by which the US outstrips its rivals, either in the aggregate or against its lead competitor in any field.  And although this isn't the thread to do it in, an analysis of any of those fields you mentioned would probably show the rate of decline increasing over time.  I certainly place less of the blame on the Bush administration (which surely has to shoulder some of it) than I do on the rapid progress being made by your rivals, India, China, Russia, the EU and Brazil.  But nevertheless, this pride in what must be largely evanescent accomplishments strikes me as largely irrelevant. 

Where the U.S. has truly stood out, despite all of its obvious imperfections, was as a beacon of democratic freedoms, of respect for the rule of law and particularly international law as exemplified in the United Nations and its Charter. And you know, all of that is basically past tense and even as we speak recedes faster and faster into the past.  I feel badly that my condemnation of the worst in the U.S.A. is seen as anti-American.  I don't think that's a valid cloak any more when real, solid, albeit angry, criticism is voiced about America's role in the world.  It's just not a valid response.  In my worst moments, the answer could be, "God-damn right it's anti-American and well-justified at that!" but a truer answer would be the one I've already given, it's anti-fascist, anti-militarist Americanism, but it's NOT "anti-American."  America's role under both Democrats and Republicans, at least since Viet Nam, has been horrendous, and that, more than any other fact, has to be taken into account and never lost sight of.  Anything less is just an enabling mechanism for the Bushs and Cheneys and Rumsfelds to go on perpetrating their shit till the end of time.

gipper

  • Guest
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2007, 08:21:14 PM »
Once perspective allowed, I have consistently held, and voiced, the opinion that GW Bush was either negligent or reckless in launching the invasion in the way he did. I reject corrupt motives, however, out of hand as not in keeping with the man's character, as not realistically capable of producing the results you allege were desired by the means used, and as not squaring with the presumptive seriousness and probity of a man in his position. What I do believe to be the case is a clear bias in favor of attack garnered from neo-con dogma and the open wound of the assassination attempt on his father. (This latter factor I take as being subconscious.) I think that Bush honestly but incorrectly believed that establishing a shining city of democracy on a hill in Iraq would be both fairly easy and would yield tremendous rewards as a beacon in the region for political change. I reject categorically and absolutely any and all (mindless) allegations of suspect motives. As for oil, it was and remains a strategic asset; Bush's interest in securing a beachead in the region where it is found, without more, is simply good geopolitics. Even so, standing alone as a concern, it would not either have justified or induced Bush to undertake the invasion.

I have no problem with the healthy competition among nations on the items you and I list. There is life after superpowerdom (or superstardom). The only real concerns are making sure that you do your best when it's your turn to carry the torch, and that you influence who your successor might be ... and continue the constructive pressure.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2007, 10:01:36 PM »
Well, I guess you put your finger on probably the strongest factor in the "He wasn't lying" camp, the character of the President himself.  I have to confess, as a matter of fact, that while I see him as reckless, negligent, arrogant, ignorant, glib and facile, I too had a hard time picturing the guy as deliberately lying to create excuses for a pre-planned invasion. 

However, if he wasn't lying, I would think that once the deceptions and/or "mistakes" had been discovered, had he not been in on this from the ground floor, heads would have rolled.  He gave his word, or his administration gave its word, for which he ultimately was solely responsible,  that this was a crisis, that the weapons were there, that they posed an intolerable threat - -  and based on those representations the country went to war, hundreds of thousands died and then:  ooops! no weapons, big mistake, sorry.  And then - - no heads rolled, no apologies to the nation, no outrage at the lies and incompetence all around that led them into this fiasco.  There is the problem with the "He's not that knd of guy" argument.

gipper

  • Guest
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2007, 10:15:17 PM »
I don't mean the following comments cynically. In addition to the "legally sufficient" reasons for war -- WMD and an intent to use them through terroist connections -- there were myriad "off board" (not legally sufficient) reasons for attacking, which I won't repeat. What I will say is that it was an easy transition from the prime argument to the ancillary arguments once things did not pan out, and the switch did not require a change of direction but a change in emphasis. All the while, it seemed to me, the international law issues that bore on the problem were murky (did violation of the legally-established "no-fly zone" constitute a cause for war; are constituent members allowed to take unilateral action to vindicate breaches of UN Security Council resolutions? and so forth), such that there wasn't a clarity of condemnation as criticism grew after the absence of WMD was confirmed. Further (and remember I'm not being cynical) every system of law is only as good as the enforcement giving it structure, which is true of international law, and, more than any other body of law, international law depends heavily on the inter-state politics upon which it is grounded and which often subsumes formal legal action.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2007, 10:50:24 PM »
<<What I will say is that it was an easy transition from the prime argument to the ancillary arguments once things did not pan out, and the switch did not require a change of direction but a change in emphasis.>>

OK, that's plausible, but even conceding it for the sake of argument, how could he possibly be so forgiving when the failure to validate any of the original publicly emphasized reasons for war bashes his credibility to bits?  What kind of man would let his credibility sink on the assurances of subordinates whose job it was to provide reliable information?  ESPECIALLY where the forgeries were so amateurish, especially where the flaw in the theory could have so easily been traced back to its single-source origin and that source's obvious interest in the outcome?  If this were really an honest mistake, it was inexcusable - - yet no heads roll.

<<the international law issues that bore on the problem were murky (did violation of the legally-established "no-fly zone" constitute a cause for war . . . ?"

Of course not - - there was no emergency factor that prevented a full examination of casus belli by the Security Council.

<< . . .  are constituent members allowed to take unilateral action to vindicate breaches of UN Security Council resolutions?>>

Not only is there no precedent for such action, it's logically absurd.  Are individual members of the community allowed to take punitive unilateral action to punish breaches of the criminal code?  Are directors of a corporation permitted to sue in their own names as individuals for wrongs done to the corporation?  Can an individual Senator or Member of Parliament sue another nation for a breach of an international treaty obligation to his own country?

<< . . . every system of law is only as good as the enforcement giving it structure, which is true of international law, and, more than any other body of law, international law depends heavily on the inter-state politics upon which it is grounded and which often subsumes formal legal action.>>

But that's PRECISELY what makes Bush's actions so heinous.  There IS no enforcement mechanism for the most powerful of the member states.  The whole structure of international law was slowly and painstakingly built on trust and respect for law.  When the primary founding member of the UN itself suddenly junks international law and returns to the law of the jungle, the effect on international law as an institution, as a viable alternative to the rule of force, is catastrophic.  This has been a huge set-back for international law.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2007, 01:53:59 AM »
Domer,
I don't get the same feeling from Michael's posts that you describe. 
I disagree with some of his thoughts, but I think he's worried about our country, mourns its dead and grieves at the situation our soldiers are in right now.  It is ruinous.   

I want our soldiers home.  That part of the world is starting to blow up now.
 We can get our troops out, or let them perish when it all blows up. 

Quote
The country needs a lesson.  A real hard lesson.  It needs a huge kick in the ass.

MT does cheer for large scores on the enemy kill sheets.  I expect he will do so untill these guys come to Canada .

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2007, 02:03:44 AM »
<< . . . every system of law is only as good as the enforcement giving it structure, which is true of international law, and, more than any other body of law, international law depends heavily on the inter-state politics upon which it is grounded and which often subsumes formal legal action.>>

But that's PRECISELY what makes Bush's actions so heinous.  There IS no enforcement mechanism for the most powerful of the member states.  The whole structure of international law was slowly and painstakingly built on trust and respect for law.  When the primary founding member of the UN itself suddenly junks international law and returns to the law of the jungle, the effect on international law as an institution, as a viable alternative to the rule of force, is catastrophic.  This has been a huge set-back for international law.



The alternative may be to have no enforcement of any international law at all.
What is the alternative to America as world policeman?

Who else is ready?

When the US left the League of Nations  it was instantly irrelevant and the USA was not the super power then that it is now.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2007, 02:00:39 PM »
<<The alternative may be to have no enforcement of any international law at all.
What is the alternative to America as world policeman?

<<Who else is ready?>>

That is why there is a United Nations.  Very few people anywhere will accept the dictate of one nation.  The United Nations was a collective that enforced law through a consensual mechanism that all member states had agreed to.  The Security Council would decide on the use of force.  The actions of the Bush administration showed total lack of respect for other member states by bypassing the Security Council to arrogate unto itself the unilateral use of force on a member state, thereby destroying decades of respect for law and collective security.  This childish and ignorant course was a disaster for the rule of law. 

It's absurd to propose that unilateral American action is a substitute for Rule of Law.  It is basically a return to the law of the jungle, a negation of everything the UN stood for.  What's the alternative to China as world policeman?  No country or group of countries is going to allow any country not stronger than it itself is to act as world policeman.  When Chinese military strength outstrips American military strength, as it inevitably will, you will not be able to argue that collective security through the United Nations is a better alternative to China as the world's policeman, because the U.S. itself rejected that ideal under the Bush administration.  Rejected the very concept of a rule of international law. 

I think we are seeing the same stage setting as happened before the Second World War, when the League of Nations folded because of the refusal of Germany, Japan and Italy to be bound by the rule of international law.  The parallel between the actions of these fascist powers and those of the Bush administration is unmistakeable.  Without law, chaos will inevitably follow.  Today we see chaos in Iraq, due to Bush's lawless attitude, spreading to Gaza and Lebanon.  Inevitably that chaos will spread and widen.  It is beyond the power of any one nation to subdue for long.

BTW, plane, the US did not "leave" the League of Nations.  The US was never a member.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 02:03:24 PM by Michael Tee »

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2007, 04:30:17 PM »
The world certainly does not need any one nation acting unilaterally as World Policeman.

With Juniorbush in charge of the US, it has acted more like Buford T. Justice of Smokey and the Bandit than Ponch of "Chipps". It would be funny if not for all the people who have needlessly died because of the unneeded invasion and the inept bungling that followed.

Buford T Justice never killed anyone, even though many a good car was creamed as a result of his bungling.

East Timor and Bosnia were settled with multinational forces, and eventually this is what restored some order to Rwanda and Liberia as well. All war is odious, but a coalition is preferable to a single force, and force is not always required.

Slovakia, Macedonia and Montenegro became independent with no more than a large force on alert.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

gipper

  • Guest
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2007, 05:14:15 PM »
To get this discussion back on track, forgetting the whirl of unceratinty surrounding a novel, potentially disastrous threat coupled to an old, proven, vicious enemy, the invasion of Iraq was justified on international law principles, not even generously interpreted, because Bush -- and most responsible others -- truly believed that Saddam's regime had deadly WMD and were very inclined to use them through the agency of established terrorist groups. The problem was not the reason the Bush administration offered nor the procedure it followed to the fateful decision, but rather this: it was honestly (or negligently or recklessly) wrong. It was an error, not a violation of law.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 05:16:24 PM by gipper »

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2007, 05:17:03 PM »
To get this discussion back on track, forgetting the whirl of unceratinty surrounding a novel, potentially disastrous threat coupled to an old, proven, vicious enemy, the invasion of Iraq was justified on international law principles, not even generously interpreted, because Bush -- and most responsible others -- truly believed that Saddam's regime had deadly WMD and were very inclined to use them through the agency of established terrorist groups. The problem was not the reason the Bush administration offered nor the procedure it followed to the fateful decision, but rather this: it was honestly (or negligently or recklessly) wrong. It was an error not a violation of law.
 

Where is the proof that He was wrong ?

We still do not know.

gipper

  • Guest
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2007, 05:22:42 PM »
Excuse me if I speak with brutal frankness: what a f$&#ing moron.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2007, 06:30:40 PM »
<<truly believed that Saddam's regime had deadly WMD and were very inclined to use them through the agency of established terrorist groups.>>

That was one of the hypothetical outcomes they claimed to believe could result from Saddam's possession of WMD.  However, as I understood their rationale, they claimed to believe that Saddam did have WMD.  They claimed that because he did have them he might at some point in time  - - any point in time - - give them to a "terrorist" group to use on America.

As far as I know, they did not claim that they believed that this was about to happen.  In any event I do not believe that there is any provision of international law that permits pre-emptive attacks except in the clearest case of imminent attack.  Speculation of what might happen without any basis in fact is clearly not the kind of justification required for use of force.  There was absolutlely no legal justification for the attack on Iraq.

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 50-Year Iraq Presence A ‘Realistic Assessment’
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2007, 09:06:05 PM »
On more than one occasion, the US has threatened other countries with major mayhem if its will was not satisfied. Did this give the USSR, Egypt, Panama, Grenada, Haiti the right to invade the US and depose its government?

The fact that none of these countries had the ability to depose the president of the US is moot. I am talking about ther right to do this.

Iraq was obviously NOT a threat to the US. Even if it did have the weapons that were alleged, it had no means of delivering them to the US, and everyone bloody well knows this.

There was ZERO justification for invading Iraq, particularly as it was done: with no plans for occupation or withdrawal.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."