Author Topic: Always on the front line  (Read 1975 times)

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Lanya

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Always on the front line
« on: June 19, 2007, 09:37:04 PM »
[I don't think I realized that these soldiers had less time away from "the Front" than soldiers in WW2 or Vietnam.]

Troops won’t get month break

By Gregg Zoroya - USA Today
Posted : Tuesday Jun 19, 2007 5:21:55 EDT

WASHINGTON — U.S. commanders in Iraq are rejecting a recommendation by Army mental health experts that troops receive a one-month break for every three months in a combat zone, despite unprecedented levels of continuous fighting and worsening risks of mental health problems.

Instead, commanders are trying to give troops two to three days inside heavily fortified bases after about eight days in the field, said Brig. Gen. Joseph Anderson, chief aide to the ground forces commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Raymond Odierno.

“We would never get the job done of securing [of Baghdad] if we went out for three months and came back” for one, Anderson said.

U.S. forces in Iraq spend more time in continuous combat without a break than those who fought in Vietnam and World War II, according to Army psychologists who studied troops in Iraq.

U.S. commanders can’t match the World War II policy, Odierno said in a news conference late last month. “Even in World War II and other times ... we would pull forces off the line and bring them back on. Here we don’t do that,” Odierno said. “They [U.S. troops] are out there consistently every single day. So you have to be mentally and physically tough.”

President Bush committed 28,000 more troops to Iraq this year as part of an escalation that started in February.

Army psychologists say continual combat may cause more mental health problems. Their research, conducted in Iraq last year, shows that 30 percent of soldiers and Marines experiencing high levels of combat demonstrate signs of anxiety, depression or acute stress.

Army Col. Carl Castro, a research psychologist who co-wrote the mental health study, said combat “is extremely, extremely stressful, and we don’t want people to lose sight of that.” That stress is aggravated, he says, by multiple tours of duty and deployments that have been extended from 12 months to 15.

Castro and Maj. Dennis McGurk, who co-authored the study, recommend U.S. troops by company or battalion be pulled back into fortified areas to rest for one month after every three months of combat, a recovery period similar to that used in World War II.

High-level combat is defined as spending at least 56 hours a week outside base camps on patrols or missions, a routine pattern for combat soldiers in Iraq. Psychologists defined the “front line” in Iraq as any time a soldier or Marine is outside a fortified installation.

“At no time in our military history have soldiers or Marines been required to serve on the front line in any war for a period of six-seven months, let alone a year, without a significant break in order to recover from the physical, psychological and emotional demands,” Castro wrote in the study.

Army Spc. Jeremy Osborn, 27, who finished 14 months in Iraq in February, said more breaks would relieve stress. “The body and mind need to take a break from always being on guard,” he said. “Never knowing when we were going to get attacked again was quite stressful.”

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/06/gns_iraqrest_070618/
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kimba1

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2007, 09:46:25 PM »
U.S. commanders can’t match the World War II policy, Odierno said in a news conference late last month. “Even in World War II and other times ... we would pull forces off the line and bring them back on. Here we don’t do that,” Odierno said. “They [U.S. troops] are out there consistently every single day. So you have to be mentally and physically tough.”

does this mean combat fatigue is a liberal myth?
the answer is just tough it out.
uhm
I know of guys who lose it in bootcamp during peacetime.

BT

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2007, 10:03:25 PM »
If you add up the break time they get almost 30 days off the line ever 90 something days this way as well

9 days off for every 24 on  the line.

27 days off for every 72 days on  the line.

36 days off for every 96  days on  the line

versus 30 days off for every 90 days on the line.

Not sure what the sobbing is about.

kimba1

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2007, 12:32:14 AM »
we`re talking stress here
like all cases of stress unless you experience it
you never think it`s a problem, it just looks wimpy to complain.
it`s like a vacation
3 days is hardy equal to 30 days off
the point is get rid of as much stress as possible
and I think adding up break time doesn`t work well
ex. we take weekends off from work and still we take vacations.
also  the soldier take thier break in a base so no benefit of distance from the frontline.
what you write looks good but in practical term its not realistic

Lanya

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2007, 05:58:41 PM »
Bones have to be tough---until they break.  Minds have to be tough---until they crack with all the combat stress.   

I think I agree with Kimba.  The "2 or 3" days off for every 8 days on is simply not the same as a longer break.

It's way better than nothing, and I'm sure the troops will take it, but man.  That is sad.

Here's an interesting article about the use of Inderal to reduce PTSD.
HARVARD GAZETTE ARCHIVES

Pill to calm traumatic memories
Puts the mind's storehouse in order
By William J. Cromie
Harvard News Office

Every day, people suffer traumatic experiences that scar their minds. Combat, rape, bombings, burns, beatings, and horrific car accidents haunt them with
Wedig, Pitman, Buhlmann
Psychiatrist Roger Pitman checks a simulated test to detect the effects of post-traumatic stress disorder. Ulrike Buhlmann (right), a research fellow, adjusts electrodes on volunteer Michele Wedig which record rapid heartbeats, sweating, muscle twitches, and other signs of stressful memories. (Staff photo Jon Chase/Harvard News Office)
memories impossible to suppress. Such day- and nightmares are part of a problem known as post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD.

Psychotherapy - talking it through with a professional - doesn't always bring the peace PTSD sufferers seek. Roger K. Pitman, professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, believes such people can be helped with new drugs that he and others are testing.

"I feel that, sooner or later, we will find a drug that can prevent or substantially reduce PTSD," Pitman says.

He and his colleagues tested a tongue-twister of a drug called propranolol on 41 people who had experienced automobile accidents, assaults, and other traumas serious enough for them to be treated at the emergency room of Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston. The goal was to see if this drug, given within six hours of their mishaps, would prevent terrifying, indelible memories.

Tested three months after an auto accident, one young man, who took a dummy pill as part of the experiment, was still wary about getting into a car. He had nightmares. He sweated, his heart rate jumped, and he felt nervous anytime he got behind the wheel, especially in the area where the accident occurred.

In contrast, others who survived similar accidents and took propranolol had significantly fewer problems.

The most revealing tests were done three months after the traumas, when 22 of the victims returned to Mass General Hospital for evaluation. Eight of these people took propranolol four times a day for 10 days, but had been off the drug for more than two months when tested. Fourteen of the 22 had taken dummy pills, or placebos.

All of them listened to audiotapes on which they had described the incidents that brought them to the emergency room. None of those who took propranolol showed strong responses to the tapes. But eight of the placebo patients were obviously shaken by reliving their traumas. Their heart rates increased, their palms sweated, their muscles twitched - all signs of PTSD.

Living with bad memories

That's a pretty good result. It hints that giving propranolol to soldiers traumatized by combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, to young boys or girls who have been sexually assaulted, to victims of terrorist bombings and rape might be a good idea. But Pitman is a cautious scientist. Before issuing propranolol or any other PTSD drug to military medics, firefighters, police officers, and emergency medical technicians, more testing needs to be done with larger numbers of people.

Why did some of the people who didn't take the drug come out as well as those who did take it? What's the best dosage? What about side effects? To get answers, Pitman and his colleagues have begun a study that will include about 200 people who are treated for trauma in the emergency rooms at Massachusetts General and Brigham and Women's hospitals in Boston. Both hospitals are affiliated with Harvard Medical School.

Pitman's colleagues are testing another drug, paroxetine (Paxil), on burn victims. Paxil has already been approved for treatment of PTSD but not for its prevention. Propranolol is approved for treating hypertension.

Recently, investigators in France reported on experiments showing that propranolol reduces PTSD symptoms. Researchers at the University of California, San Diego, have also been testing propranolol and another drug called guanfacine. They are expected to publish their results soon.

"The object of these drugs is not to make people forget their traumatic experiences," Pitman explains, "but to reduce the intensity of the memories to a more normal level, a level that a person can easily live with."

He sees post-traumatic stress disorder as a perfectly natural process gone amok. Pitman puts it this way: Suppose one of our primitive ancestors, while looking for a good water hole in Africa, is attacked by a crocodile. That person had better remember where the attack took place or he or she stands to be removed from the human gene pool.

Activation of stress hormones like adrenaline in such situations stirs an animal or person to flight or fight. It also sharpens their memory. But, Pitman says, such a response sometimes "can be too much of a good thing. A process I call 'superconditioning' leads to the formation of a deeply engraved traumatic memory that subsequently manifests itself as the intrusive recollections and emotional responses of post-traumatic stress disorder."

Along with deliverance from death and disaster, you get a disorder. Propranolol shows a potential for curing that disease.

A widespread mental illness

According to a national study, about 8 percent of the U.S. population, some 20 million people, get PTSD sometime in their lives. It is the most important mental illness dogging the military. During the Vietnam War, about one of every three people involved in combat developed post-traumatic stress disorder. A surprising number of nurses who treated those soldiers, sailors, and Marines suffered from it, too. Pitman expects the same number of those who experience combat and terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan to be PTSD casualties.

Giving propranolol to combatants in the field is not an idea that pleases generals, Pitman points out. Its anti-adrenal effect could block the will to fight along with easing heart palpitations and nightmares. But it could be given to those who are being evacuated, if medics have a good idea of who is most likely to suffer the disorder. Pitman's colleague, Scott Orr of Harvard Medical School, is doing experiments with firefighters and police officers to try to identify individuals who are most likely to be traumatized after experiencing intense stress.

That type of know-how would be helpful for people charged with the emergency care of civilians. In such cases, there is the additional problem of obtaining informed consent to administer drugs. Then there's the question of what is the best time to give such drugs. "There must be a critical window of time when PTSD drugs would be most effective," Pitman notes. "In the study at Mass General we gave propranolol within four hours of the trauma, maybe one hour would be better."

Finally, there's the ethical question. Leon Kass, chairman of the President's Council on Bioethics, objects to propranolol's use on the grounds that it medicates away one's conscience. "It's the morning-after pill for just about anything that produces regret, remorse, pain, or guilt," he says.
Pitman, however, thinks that an effective PTSD drug would do a lot more good than harm.

[Leon Kass can kiss my #ss.]
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/03.18/01-ptsd.html
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BT

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2007, 09:48:18 PM »
How does the time off rotation compare to cops and firemen who also have very stressful jobs?

Or EMT's

and ER Staff.

kimba1

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 09:51:17 PM »
the fact they can go home to family and friends may make it different than soldiers.

Lanya

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2007, 10:21:06 PM »
There's significant  burnout in those jobs too. 
But those jobs, you can quit...it's possible, it may not be good financially for you but, you can.
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BT

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2007, 12:17:59 AM »
Quote
But those jobs, you can quit...it's possible, it may not be good financially for you but, you can.

So your advice to soldiers would be to desert? So that they would be equal to their counterparts in civilian jobs that have high stress levels and risk.

What amazes me is the high re-enlistment rate among soldiers, if it is as bad as you paint. Perhaps esprit de  corp is a foreign concept to those on the outside looking in.

Lanya

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2007, 12:45:52 AM »
<<So your advice to soldiers would be to desert? So that they would be equal to their counterparts in civilian jobs that have high stress levels and risk.>>

No, of course not.
You brought up the other occupations where there's high stress, and I'm making the point that those jobs you can quit.  Thus lowering your stress.  The soldiers can't do that,  so their stress is not as manageable.   
Camraderie, the sense of being all for one and one for all, is why a few guys I knew re-upped to Vietnam.    The guys today know there is such a shortage, and they don't want their men  to work short.     
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BT

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2007, 01:04:06 AM »
Quote
The guys today know there is such a shortage, and they don't want their men  to work short.

Which is all part of being in the brotherhood of shared experiences. I don't think the guys from Nam are any different than the guys today except the guys today are all volunteer.

Same as cops, same as firefighters.


Lanya

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2007, 01:07:26 PM »
The point it, BT, once you're cracked, you're cracked.
 It's not a good way to proceed, to just keep lengthening tours and keep sending people back for multiple tours, and w/o enough time away from the front to recoup a bit.   It is wasteful, hugely and sorrowfully. 
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BT

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2007, 01:38:50 PM »
The point also is that people cracked in all preceding wars. They called it shell shock in the WW's . Post Traumatic Stress from Nam forward.

My guess is the military is aware of the syndrome and is doing what it can under the prevailing circumstances.

And just perhaps your anger aroused by your empathy is better directed at those who plant the IED's  than the US Military which is doing what it can to alleviate stress.


sirs

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2007, 01:52:31 PM »
And just perhaps your anger aroused by your empathy is better directed at those who plant the IED's  than the US Military which is doing what it can to alleviate stress.

Ouch. 

But then is that not altering the ends now, & thus would obligate a whole different set of means?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 02:33:19 PM by sirs »
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Always on the front line
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2007, 02:04:56 PM »
Not sure what the sobbing is about.

============================
Could it be that these guys are surrounded by people in an alien and hostile culture, many of whom want to kill them, and few who respect them other than because of their ability to bust down their doors at 3 AM and stomp the living crap out of them?

Cops and firefighters have a lot of time off and at home. No one hates the firefighters, and only some people hate the cops that are assholes.
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