Simulation Finds 9/11 Fireproofing Key

[Universe Prince]

And now, of course, I realize that last question is stupid. I voted for George W. Bush in 2000 because I did trust him. I do not trust him anymore. At least, not as President. I also voted for the treasurer mentioned above. So obviously, one can vote for an individual in trust and later lose that trust.

[BT]

When the government builds a bridge do you trust it to last more than a week?

When they test your drinking  water do you expect the tests to be done correctly?

The face of the government is the bureaucracy. The bureaucracy is us. If you don't trust the bureaucracy are you saying you don't trust us?

[Universe Prince]

When the government builds a bridge do you trust it to last more than a week?

Sure. When the government builds a bridge, do you trust it to cost what a privately owned business would pay for a similar structure?

When they test your drinking  water do you expect the tests to be done correctly?

Usually. But then once upon a time, I trusted that my government would not try to hold people, American citizens or not, indefinitely, without recourse to council and denying habeas corpus. But it did.

The face of the government is the bureaucracy. The bureaucracy is us. If you don't trust the bureaucracy are you saying you don't trust us?

I don't recall saying that at all. Yes, lots of good people who do their jobs well work for the government in one fashion or another. Yes, as I go about my daily life I tend to trust that the roads I travel on and the water I drink are safe. So in that sense, yeah, I trust the government. But that doesn't mean the government gives me no reason for distrust. To quote that profound American journalist, Dave Barry, "We must always remember that, as Americans, we all have a common enemy — an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." Okay, so he was joking, a little. That I may trust people who work for the government to do a good job in some things does not mean I trust all of the government in all things.

I'm not suggesting that we need to necessarily or automatically distrust people working for the government. I'm suggesting that distrusting the government is not inherently an unhealthy thing. Those people building the roads and testing the water, I'd likely trust them whether they worked for the government or for private interests. To me the issue there is less who pays them and more will they do a good job. So the problem is not with the road builders and water testers. And I think you know that. It's ridiculous to suggest that if I don't trust the government then I don't trust my neighbor. Some trust is given in faith. Some trust has to be earned. And when either trust is proven misplaced, then distrust seems the prudent and intelligent choice. I trust the government to pay someone qualified and trustworthy to build the bridge. I do not trust the government to have necessarily chosen in a manner wise or financially reasonable to have the bridge built with taxpayer dollars. Ever heard of the (in)famous "Bridge to Nowhere"?

I trust government in some ways and not in others to approximately to the same degree that I trust some individuals and not others. If I have trouble trusting the previously mentioned state treasurer to handle the state funds now that he's been charged with cocaine possession and intent to distribute, does that mean I don't trust the not accused government employees who test the local water? No, of course it doesn't mean that.

Let's put it this way: while I trust the road builders to build roads, I also trust the politicians to play politics. But trusting politicians to play politics is almost like trusting a kleptomaniac to steal things. I see what actions the government takes, and just as I would with a person, I trust it accordingly. Now, if a highly skilled and dedicated road builder started demanding a cut of my paycheck whether or not I wanted to give it to him, I might trust him to build roads, but not with my money. If the local water testers union (I have no idea if such a thing exists) decided my neighborhood was now required to pay union dues that the union would spend in anyway it liked, I might trust them to test the water, but not to represent my interests by their other actions. I see no reason why I should not apply that same standard to the government, local, state or federal. Just because the government can pay some people to build a decent bridge doesn't mean I trust the government in all things, and quite frankly, it shouldn't.

Now, all that said, there is another level of distrust that exists (or should) between the government and the citizen. The government is a monopoly in the use of force. If Joe Citizen forcibly imprisons John Public or starts a shooting war with Susie Q, Joe is like going to end up in jail. Yet the government can imprison people and send troops off to kill people, and this is considered part of the job of the government. If Joe Citizen starts coercing people into giving him their money or simply taking other people's money, we call that robbery or theft. When the government does that, we call it taxation. If Joe Citizen started forcibly evicting people so he could take over their property and use it for his own structure or sell it to someone else, he would probably end up charged with harassment and several other thing. When the government does it, it's excused as merely "eminent domain". There are probably plenty of other examples. The point is, the government is given, rightly or wrongly, a monopoly on the use of force and coercion. That makes the relationship between it and the average individual different from any other sort of relationship. And it is also exactly why a general distrust of the government, not the individuals building roads or necessarily of the individual politicians but of the government, is a healthy thing. In point of fact, not distrusting the government in this regard would be if not unhealthy then incredibly naive at the absolute least.

[_JS]

Sure. When the government builds a bridge, do you trust it to cost what a privately owned business would pay for a similar structure?

Heh, you might be amazed.

[Universe Prince]

I might be amazed at the state or local level. Depends on the government probably. Do you have some stats about road/bridge construction being done at rock bottom prices?

[Plane]

    Lets take it as resolved already that human nature has a dark side , that this dark side will be expressed by a number of individuals and groups for all human situations.

     So , doesn't government produce an attractive force on this dark side?

     Don't persons and groups who desire power for  evil purposes crave governmental positions?

     Isn't this phenominon to be expected in any time or place ?

     The founding of the US Constitution ,on principals of devideing power and limiting concentration of power , balanceing powers between rival parts of government ,represents a serious advance in the human condition , as we no longer need merely hope for the government to be benelevolent , we the people have some leverage on it.

      Is the foundation of the USA set in distrust of government?

[_JS]

I might be amazed at the state or local level. Depends on the government probably. Do you have some stats about road/bridge construction being done at rock bottom prices?

Check out the Skye Bridge, built privately and expected to make a profit. One of the major backers was Bank of America. It proved to be a complete disaster and the Scottish Assembly had to take it over.

[Universe Prince]

Check out the Skye Bridge, built privately and expected to make a profit. One of the major backers was Bank of America. It proved to be a complete disaster and the Scottish Assembly had to take it over.

From Wikipedia: "In exchange for the contractors funding the bridge's construction themselves (rather than being paid to do so from the public exchequer) they were granted a licence to operate the bridge and charge travellers tolls. When the Bridge contract was first awarded, the partnership estimated it would cost around £15 million, although delays and design changes added significantly to the cost (to around £25 million, by the BBC's estimate)." Yep. That was a frak-up.

[Universe Prince]

Is the foundation of the USA set in distrust of government?

In the sense that there was still belief in a need for government and yet also for a need to strictly limit the power of government, the answer to your question is a yes.