Author Topic: Meet the new Tolerance  (Read 10443 times)

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sirs

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2007, 04:23:56 PM »
What "problem" would that be, great wise one?  Currently the only "problem" I see is the continued pass hatred and intolerance are given when it happens to aimed at the supposed "majority". 

In my book, hate is hate, regardless who it's aimed at, and not accepted nor even "tolerated", even if aimed at the "majority".  That, FYI still doesn't equate to any effort on my part to prevent said hate, which is the cornerstone to the 1st amendment
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

gipper

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2007, 04:27:38 PM »
Yawn.

sirs

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2007, 04:35:06 PM »
So, no problem then.  Gotcha

 ::)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

gipper

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2007, 05:01:10 PM »
You can devote your time explaining (and these are direct quotes) why "hate is hate ... and [can] not [be] accepted nor even 'tolerated'" WITH THE IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING COMMENT "[this] ... doesn't equate on my part to prevent said hate, which is the cornerstone to the 1st amendment."

What you mean, I suppose, is that we have admitted that the controversial cartoon is properly (depending on interest, resonance, etc.) a part of legitimate debate, and that we are wrangling over the best strategies and tactics to address it, such as including, but not limited to, "How dare they insult us that way!" "This is the work of a low-life," etc. What you don't want to do, it seems to me, is to delve behind the motivation and the potentially powerful symbolism to ask, "What is he upset about?" "How can we address that?" and so forth. Now, don't get me wrong, the strategy and tactics of debate are something I find inherently interesting, but not as interesting as the potentially profound image and its justifiable implications drawn from immediate context or an even more sweeping context pitting Christianity "against" (it actually can be a cooperative effort) its dissidents down through the centuries, or the very use of Christianity as an organizing set of principles for a civilization (Western Civilization) and the (negative) effects that has had and  why the issue is so topical today as modernity clashes with religion (again, it can be cooperatively) and renegade radicals of kindred religions declare war on what we are, it seems.

sirs

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2007, 05:33:50 PM »
What I have "admitted" is that I (sirs) can recognize hateful intolerant speech (& cartoons), and have a 1st amendment right to indicate such.  I also have the same 1st amendment right to reference the hypocritical duplicity some have in giving such speech (& cartoons) a pass, because they happen to be aimed at some nebulous "majority", as if that makes it perfectly acceptable. 

Capice'?  So, what would be your "problem" with that?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 06:12:25 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2007, 05:55:18 PM »
Quote
Last I checked, PURE SPEECH expressing revulsion, disgust, hatred and the like was both tolerated by our own First Amendment and more broadly by democratic theory in general.

Last I checked, a sticker like this might get a defendant a hate crime bonus if his victim were a Christian. Just something to think about as we ponder the mysteries of the first.

Amianthus

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2007, 05:59:22 PM »
My superior intellect understands the problem perfectly well, which your last post tacitly admits.

There's that famous humility that we've been missing recently...
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

gipper

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2007, 07:22:48 PM »
What you say, BT, in your last post is wholly irrelevant. The First Amendment and democratic theory protect the "battle of ideas," not of cudgels.

BT

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2007, 07:27:02 PM »
What i say is totally relevant, regardless of your dismissive attitude. How else are hate crimes prosecuted if not by looking into the mindset of the perpetrator.

Michael Tee

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2007, 08:40:39 PM »
<<What i say is totally relevant, regardless of your dismissive attitude. How else are hate crimes prosecuted if not by looking into the mindset of the perpetrator. >>

Well, I looked into the mindset of the perpetrator and I sure as hell did not see any hate.  I don't think you 'd find one guy in twelve who would think that was a hate-motivated cartoon, let alone a crime. 

The problem with the right wing is that they have absolutely no sense of proportion.  The same insanity that lets them compare the Holocaust with abortion rights shows them a hate crime in a cheerfully irreverent cartoon.   Personally, I think it's because they just don't live in the real world, they're over-focused on the battle of ideas and tend to see life in the abstract rather than as just life.

BT

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2007, 09:41:51 PM »
Quote
Well, I looked into the mindset of the perpetrator and I sure as hell did not see any hate.  I don't think you 'd find one guy in twelve who would think that was a hate-motivated cartoon, let alone a crime.

No one said it was a crime.

Quote
The problem with the right wing is that they have absolutely no sense of proportion. 

What's a yellow Juden armband among friends.


gipper

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2007, 12:38:00 AM »
As I recall it, the prototype of hate of which you speak was a yellow Star of David worn on the chest. Nowadays, here, I figure even they would be protected speech, and even in, of all places, a Jewish enclave like Skokie. The question is not whether you have any control over the pure-speech aspects of the symbol, but how you react to it once it's been introduced into your environment.

That's not the end of the matter, of course. Offshoot issues such as control of venue, for example, to keep the peace are rife with a message like this, as are other issues. Then there are the whole addressing-content, managing-the-politics aspects, which, of course, can start with a blistering ad hominem attack, maybe. Sometimes I myself favor calling a shitbird a shitbird, for time-saving's sake.

BT

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2007, 01:07:57 AM »
I really don't see much difference between symbolically pissing on the predominant symbol for Christianity and flushing a Koran down a toilet.

Yet one alleged action made headlines for months and the other action is minimized to a free speech issue. Which as long as the government stays uninvolved, is a straw man argument if i ever heard one.

In this forum we have been told that the intent of the speaker is not as important as the reaction of the listener.

We have heard that if you feel that your membership in a group is why you were targeted then that is all that matters for a crime to go to bonus rounds with hate crime penalties.

Look at this case in New York:

To Commit a Hate Crime, Must the Criminal Truly Hate the Victim?


In her courtroom on the 21st floor of State Supreme Court in Brooklyn yesterday, Justice Jill Konviser-Levine sat and pondered the question of hate.

?Bottom line,? Justice Konviser-Levine ruminated aloud, ?is animus an element of the crime??

The crime in question was the killing of Michael J. Sandy, 29, a gay man who was lured to a parking area in Sheepshead Bay last October, beaten and chased into traffic. He later died in the hospital.

Prosecutors have said a group of young men contacted Mr. Sandy through an online gay chat room, selecting him as a robbery victim in the belief that a gay man would be unwilling or unable to put up a fight and unlikely to report the crime.

The defendants ? John Fox, 20; Ilya Shurov, 21; and Anthony Fortunato, 21 ? have been charged not just with murder, but with murder under the state Hate Crimes Act of 2000, which provides longer prison sentences for crimes motivated ?in whole or in substantial part because of a belief or perception regarding the race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of a person.?

Prosecutors and defense lawyers have presented contrasting interpretations of that phrase, the words it includes and the words it omits.

In court documents, a defense lawyer has asked Justice Konviser-Levine to dismiss the enhanced murder charges against all three defendants because ?the crimes alleged are not crimes of hate but rather crimes of opportunity.?

That lawyer, Gerald J. Di Chiara, filed a motion in which he argued that lawmakers responsible for the Hate Crimes Act had written a statute applicable only to defendants who truly hate their victims. He quoted from a State Senate memorandum in support of a law ?designed to ensure that only those who truly are motivated by invidious hatred are prosecuted for committing hate crimes.?

To allow prosecutors to pursue hate crime charges without demonstrating such hatred, Mr. Di Chiara argued, would render the law unconstitutionally vague and arbitrary.

For example, he wrote, the authorities could then ascribe hate crimes to ?a mugger who selects an elderly or disabled person because he believes that such a victim will be unable to resist effectively, a pocketbook snatcher who targets women, or a burglar who selects a victim from an ethnic minority group because the victim does not speak English.?

In response, prosecutors filed a response drafted by Seth M. Lieberman, senior appellate counsel to the Brooklyn district attorney. Around the courthouse, Mr. Lieberman, a quiet, cerebral man, is most often found sitting in silence beside his colleagues, taking notes on constitutional issues.

In his response, Mr. Lieberman began with an end run around the defense motion: He conceded that the grand jury had seen no evidence of hatred for gay men, but argued that Justice Konviser-Levine had approved the indictment, thus implicitly rejecting the same defense arguments.

In addition, he argued, if lawmakers had intended to make prosecutors prove defendants hated their victims, the Legislature would have said so in the law?s final language.

?By contrast with New York State,? Mr. Lieberman wrote, ?other states have hate crime statutes that require evidence of bias, animus or prejudice.?

Citing legal scholars, he suggested that hate crime prosecutions without evidence of hatred could benefit society. As in the era of racially motivated lynching, he noted, prosecutors could alter perceptions of vulnerability among certain groups and impunity among others.

At the hearing yesterday, friends and relatives of Mr. Sandy?s sat opposite supporters of the defendants. All paid rapt attention as Justice Konviser-Levine probed the merits of the motion. In its intellectual exercise, the hearing departed from the usual tenor of the courthouse, a place more fertile for high dudgeon, emotional drama and accidental comedy.

In his oral argument, Mr. Lieberman said the hate crime law was meant to address a deep social problem.

Justice Konviser-Levine, who is due to rule in August, asked him whether he meant the law was ?nothing more than rhetoric??

To the contrary, Mr. Lieberman argued, the law was valid and fit these defendants because ?they chose to go to a gay Web site, and there was a particular remark made by one of the defendants that this was an easy way to rob people.?

Then the defense lawyer, Mr. Di Chiara, split that point even more finely: ?The victim here was chosen because he was an easy target,? he said, ?not because he was gay.?


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/20/nyregion/20hate.html?ex=1339992000&en=ecbe0bca7c7e9afc&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss


gipper

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2007, 01:17:41 AM »
I don't follow your reasoning, BT. I will leave all the other issues unaddressed because they, like the Koran incident I will address shortly, have no bearing on the points and principles I'm making, at least as I see it. As for the Koran, wasn't that insult reportedly imposed by a United States Army serviceman against a Muslim prisoner at Guantanamo, thus implicating a host of issues not present with the little kid pissing, such as the code of military conduct and, much more profoundly, international relations with Muslim nations at a time when their cooperation and support may prove critical to the conflict with Islamic radicals?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 01:21:03 AM by gipper »

BT

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2007, 01:35:11 AM »
Does it matter who does the deed? Isn't the real issue the reaction of the audience?

You mention Muslim nations reacting badly to reports of this abuse, which by the way were disproved.

This isn't a question of governance or relationships between states. It is a simple matter of civility that should be present in a diverse society.

Isn't the mantra of the left to have empathy for others? Yet it seems the left has no empathy for those who may be offended by something like this sticker on a rear windshield. Get over it they say. The rules don't apply to majorities. Its a mere child depicted on the sticker, how could this child have hate in their heart ( which was one of the more ridiculous arguments posted) .

Why the change ?