Author Topic: Meet the new Tolerance  (Read 10458 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2007, 02:56:10 AM »
I didn't flip-flop at all. 

I said very clearly that the armband came out of cartoons. 

I also said very clearly in the very next sentence that it came out of speeches and books.

You made a completely unwarranted assumption:  that I said it came out of cartoons BEFORE it came out of books and speeches.  Yet I said no such thing.  And of course, the idea is absurd.

Your bullshit is pathetically transparent:  put words in someone's mouth, and when he denies saying them, accuse him of flip-flopping.  Who do you really fool with this crap?  Apparently, only sirs.  Hardly worth the effort, BT.  His premature crowing  is pure reflex action - - like a knee-jerk, only faster.


BT

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2007, 06:48:13 AM »
And i never made claims of the chronology of the events.

What i did say is that the intolerance displayed in your cartoons, which you freely admit happened, can lead to much dire manifestations of intolerance.

Yet you pooh pooh the Calvin and Hobbes misuse, questioning my sanity as you gaze into your crystal ball and say no big deal, while all i have to do is crack a history book and see that it very well could be a big deal.

Certainly there are differences.

But also most certain is that the expression of intolerance seems to have found acceptance and dismissal in both examples.

And that isn't a good thing.

MissusDe

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2007, 07:02:15 AM »
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What i did say is that the intolerance displayed in your cartoons, which you freely admit happened, can lead to much dire manifestations of intolerance.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. - George Santayana

_JS

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2007, 10:52:17 AM »
But history's lesson is quite a bit different here.

The racial hatred for the Jews in Europe (and the United States and Canada) did not come about through a few statements or drawings such as these. They came about through centuries of anger, bitterness, and anti-Semitic laws.

The racial hatred for the blacks in the United States came about primarily due to their complete dehumanisation, which turned them into property. This was mirrored in the law as well as in the minds of the people who lived in areas where slavery was common. Blacks were an economic function, not human beings. A similar event took place with Black South Africans, where it was even the policy to make the black people appear as economic functions (this is how they were spoken of in Parliament, for example).

While I don't like the window sticker and the symbolism it uses, it is not comparable to the aforementioned events. That is pure hyperbole. I have to disagree with Missus, Bt, and others who make this claim.

The point I believe that Domer is making, or at least part of it, is that Christians represent a sizable majority here in the United States. More than that, they represent a powerful majority. No one becomes president without at least making a presentable case for being a Christian. On lists of past Presidents, Chief Justices, Secretaries of State, etc...it is not uncommon to find "religion" listed among their characteristics. You won't find many atheists, Buddhists, or Muslims on those lists!

Historically, taking swipes at powerful majorities is not uncommon. There were plenty of jokes in Russia and East Germany about the communist governments. The Church was on the receiving end of a great number of parodies throughout her history (read The Decameron if you don't believe me ;) ). You think this sticker is insulting, The Decameron makes it look like pre-school material, but the Church survived it rather easily. The British Parliament and crown have been on the receiving end of scathing satire and criticism since the earliest days, and it has survived to be the oldest continuing nation in the world.

So swiping at the majority is really a common historical phenomena. That doesn't mean we should accept racism or bitter hatred, but I'm not sure I'm seeing that here.

In fact, I'm far more concerned about Muslims, who seem to receive a lot of criticism, much of it unfounded in both Europe and the United States. I've seen it right here. To me, that could mirror the hatred of the Jews far more closely than this sticker.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

BT

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2007, 10:57:40 AM »
Js

We can waste time doing comparative analysis of what peoples are the greatest victims in the world or we can recognize intolerance when we see it.

Frankly i wasn't offended.

And i have seen far more vitriolic attacks against faith and those who have faith in these very pages.

I simply saw it as a sign of the times.

And apparently to many, that sign means nothing.


Michael Tee

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2007, 11:00:13 AM »
I think the Santayana quote is one of the most misapplied quotations in politics.

There is nothing wrong with the quote itself; it's very profound and very true.  But it presupposes that the people who use it actually know something about history.  

If anyone thinks that the Nazi movement - - or indeed the general European anti-Semitism which caused or contributed to the Holocaust - - originated with cartoons, they are indeed sadly ignorant of history.  Anti-Semitism began as a religious current in the Christian religion, in which the Jews were vilified for centuries as the killers of Christ.  They were referred to as such (invariably accompanied by such endearing adjectives as "perfidious" and "accursed") in the official liturgy and public prayers of the RCC all over Europe.  Martin Luther and his successors in Protestantism continued the work.  ("The Jews and Their Lies" by Martin Luther)  When the Nazis began to speak, after the loss of WWI, of a treasonous racial cancer amongst the German people, they had a ready-made audience receptive to every word they said. Nobody was hearing anything new about the alleged nature and character of the Jews.

To make the claim that hatred of the Jews began as anything other than a religious precept - - a Christian precept - - is totally ridiculous.  But to claim that it began with cartoons is - - I would have said laughable, except that I see that otherwise intelligent people like BT actually seem to believe it - - and I am actually just a little bit stunned.  Shocked, kind of.  Against that kind of wilful ignorance, there is really no argument.  We just have to agree to disagree.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 11:55:22 AM by Michael Tee »

_JS

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2007, 11:32:04 AM »
Js

We can waste time doing comparative analysis of what peoples are the greatest victims in the world or we can recognize intolerance when we see it.

Frankly i wasn't offended.

And i have seen far more vitriolic attacks against faith and those who have faith in these very pages.

I simply saw it as a sign of the times.

And apparently to many, that sign means nothing.

You misunderstand. It isn't what people are the greatest victims. It is how certain groups got to be in the situation of being extremely victimised by the societies in which they lived. People are all too quick to jump in with comparisons to yellow stars or slavery, but many times those comparisons fall flat. If we want to apply Missus' point then we need to apply it with a realistic view of history.

I do think that the sticker is a sign of the times. And that is unfortunate.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

BT

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2007, 12:55:55 PM »
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I do think that the sticker is a sign of the times. And that is unfortunate.

Thank you for understanding my point.

gipper

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2007, 02:54:28 PM »
The logical extension of BT's conception of this problem would be, apparently, to silence raw, bruising critics -- to siphon out vitriol from public discourse. On the other hand, Michael's, JS's and my approaches would leave response to the political process, with the ever-present memory (NOT appropriate here for the kid pissing on the cross) that extrapolations of the offensive behavior may lead to catastrophic extremes.

sirs

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2007, 03:02:58 PM »
Again, Domer with the apparent illogic leap that cricizing said intolerant/hateful speech (& cartoons) is tantamount to advocating suppression of free speech     ::)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

gipper

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2007, 03:08:42 PM »
You people are often so loony and blindly righteous that a constant reminder is appropriate.

BT

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2007, 03:16:30 PM »
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The logical extension of BT's conception of this problem would be, apparently, to silence raw, bruising critics -- to siphon out vitriol from public discourse. On the other hand, Michael's, JS's and my approaches would leave response to the political process, with the ever-present memory (NOT appropriate here for the kid pissing on the cross) that extrapolations of the offensive behavior may lead to catastrophic extremes.

Leaving it to the political process would in fact make it a freedom of speech issue. It certainly makes it a hate crime issue.

I happen to think peer pressure would be more appropriate.


gipper

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2007, 03:18:19 PM »
Get back to me when you know what you're talking about.

sirs

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2007, 03:26:39 PM »
Despite its overt arrogant overtones, your intentions were perhaps sincere.  Misplaced and completely unnecessary, but sincere
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Meet the new Tolerance
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2007, 03:49:00 PM »
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Get back to me when you know what you're talking about.

Who are you talking to?