Author Topic: Resegregate  (Read 5665 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2007, 12:32:55 AM »
JS, I have nothing against multiculturalism. I'm all for it in fact. I just don't believe we need to force it on people. Parents should be allowed, imo, to decide where to send their child(ren) to school. If multiculturalism is important to them, then they should be free to take that into consideration. If their child performs better at a black-focused school than a racially integrated school, then I see no reason to force the parents to send the child to the racially integrated school. Because as good as multiculturalism can be, if the child is not learning to read then the multiculturalism needs to take a lower position of priority.

I hear and read a lot that parents need to take more interest in the education of the children. And to be honest, saying parents should take a greater interest in their child's education but removing most of the education choices from the parents seems, to me, counterproductive.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Universe Prince

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2007, 12:35:17 AM »

I might if meant the students learned how to spell 'curriculum', 'European' and 'Caucasian'.


Or if it meant the students learned how to properly form sentences and use pronouns.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

sirs

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2007, 03:29:17 AM »
Perhaps the confusions arises from certain elements falsely painting this decision as a reversal of Brown.   It isn't.

Good catch, Bt
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2007, 04:54:06 AM »
I rode a bus for two hours every day for nine years.

I don't credit that with preventing me from developing racism.

My Mother and Father were enlightened by paying attention to the real world as it happened around them .

So when my Father told me that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a hero , or my mother told me that everyone deserves my respect from the first it made a diffrence.

Makeing me get up an hour earlyer than would have been required otherwise and getting me home an hour later , and telling me it was for a social good didn't make a positive difrence on me at all.

Michael Tee

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2007, 10:36:54 AM »
<<I rode a bus for two hours every day for nine years.>>

Wow.  Grades 4 to 12? [please, no jokes about repeating years]  In Georgia?  How did you feel about it?  What was the racial composition of the school you attended?  Did your attitude towards blacks change during the years of your bussing?

I just read recently that the vast majority of bussing involved black kids bussed to white schools.  Was that true in your case too, were there also blacks riding busses going in opposite directions to yours?

<<I don't credit that with preventing me from developing racism.>>

Well the purpose wasn't to change hearts and minds, it was to equalize educational opportunities.

<<So when my Father told me that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a hero , or my mother told me that everyone deserves my respect from the first it made a diffrence.>>

What did they tell you about Herman Talmadge?  What did they tell you about Lester Maddox?


Universe Prince

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2007, 08:23:02 AM »
Excerpt from "Integration Defeats Quotas" by Steve Chapman:

      When Crystal Meredith moved into the Louisville, Ky., school district five years ago, she chose to enroll her son Joshua McDonald in a public school. The closest one was already full, so administrators assigned him to a school 10 miles from his home. Preferring not to subject a kindergartener to a commute, Meredith applied to a nearby school that was not yet full.

But though there was room in the school, there was no room for Joshua. Admitting him, administrators decreed, "would have an adverse effect on desegregation compliance." His request was rejected because he was the wrong color: white.

On Thursday, the Supreme Court struck down the use of race in assigning public school students in Seattle and Louisville. In the aftermath, there was considerable debate about the abstract legal principles being contested. But at bottom, the case was about whether it's permissible to close the schoolhouse door on a child because of his race.

Most of us would say no. The Supreme Court has previously said the same thing. In 1955, in the second of its landmark Brown v. Board of Education decisions abolishing segregated schools, it unanimously concluded that "racial discrimination in public education is unconstitutional" and that "all provisions of federal, state or local law requiring or permitting such discrimination must yield to this principle."
      

   [...]

      In fact, what the court ordered back then was not "racially mixed schools." What it ordered was the removal of laws and policies prohibiting racially mixed schools. The principle it upheld was nondiscrimination -- which would often (but not always) lead to racial integration.

In any event, what the Seattle and Louisville school districts were aiming at went beyond achieving integration to enforce a rigid racial "balance" in every school. Had Joshua been allowed to go where his mother requested, no one would have been denied the chance to attend a school made up of kids of different races.
      

Rest of the article at the other end of this link.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

gipper

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2007, 04:38:16 PM »
I have yet to read last week's decision in full, being preoccupied with other matters, but I have read enough of it combined with some professional commentary and some trenchant remarks by fellow members here to form an initial reaction. In any case, oftentimes, ironically as with Brown itself, apparently, seeming ages have to be traversed, and countless words expended before some decisions' import can be appreciated even by the most demanding and discerning observer.

For the sake of clarity and honesty, I will state my orientation up front: racial discrimination in all its forms and transmutations burdens this nation still, the darkest aspect of our history (along witth the treatment of our native population), one that bears down hardest on the most vulnerable: our bright-eyed, hopeful children, often about to be figuratively crush in the maw of "business as usual in America."

For one slice of that sorry, still-unfolding legacy, our federal Supreme Court stood proud -- and unanimous -- in 1954, overturning the formerly constitutional (which I take as a measure of our then-degradation) "separate but equal" doctrine and in the strongest possible terms ordered desegregation of schools, which were viewed as a special category of cases dealing with our children and the basic tools, experiences and nurturing they would need to grow to strong adults able to capitalize on the opportunities life offers here, and to maximize their productivity and promise. In that case, Brown v. Bd. of Ed., the Court in essence ordered all formerly segregated school districts to integrate, plain and simple. Despite the historic success of traditionally and predominantly black colleges like Howard, Spelman, Morehouse, and a host of others, the Court found that a policy of separation in elementary and secondary public education was invidious to black children and inimical to our principles and goals as a nation.

The Brown Court itself did not address segregation-beyond-legal-edict, such as the ghettoization we have in never-segregated-by-law in pockets of New Jersey (another story unto itself involving a state Supreme Court mandate to equalize funding through each and every public scholl district in the state), which leaves a de facto pattern of segregation with, say, 80% black in Newark but 90% non-black in Livingston. These school patterns are dictated by rresidence patterns dictated by economic and social reasons, mainly, but are no less insidious in the results they yield, often even moreso, than the problem addressed in Brown itself. I don't know the starkness of the situation in Seattle caused by residential patterns, but the situation there (Seattle) is an example of school districts (I assume) not-previously segregated. Louisville, however, was previously segregated (I assume).

One would think the Louisville situation, on the very terms of Brown itself, would have been accepted by the Court because of its history of official discrimination. Importantly, Louisville had a VOLUNTARY integration system as the Court reviewed it, that is, one VOLUNTARILY adopted by the school board exercising its presumed expertise in these matters and the discretion that (formerly) went with it under the Brown regime. Clearly, to me, in light of Brown, the presumption of regularity had to run in favor of the school board.

For Seattle, the circumstance appears to me, without studying the matter closely, to be one where a notion of "floating, cultural harm," decoupled from the invidious reach of official discrimination that is present for Louisville, would have to be adopted to allow its VOLUNTARY integration plan. While this plays with the notion bad-actor and harmed party present in all civil litigation (since the Seattle school district without the integration plan still would not be a "bad actor"), this problem dissolves into a mere trifle when the time-honored concept of "compelling state interest" is used by a school district voluntarily to achieve the goals that Brown set out to emblazon in the American consciousness.

Universe Prince

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2007, 05:37:32 PM »
So, you favor racial discrimination in deciding where a child is and is not allowed to go to school. Despite your verbose explanation, I still don't get why some people think racial discrimination should be a priority for schools. Aren't we supposed to be teaching children to not discriminate based on skin color and such?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

sirs

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2007, 05:42:18 PM »
I still don't get why some people think racial discrimination should be a priority for schools. Aren't we supposed to be teaching children to not discriminate based on skin color and such?

It must be a nuance thing      :-\
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

gipper

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2007, 05:50:37 PM »
Me, verbose? Heavens forbid! But if you want to see "verbose," take a look a Justice Breyer's 71-page dissent.

Plane

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2007, 06:56:53 PM »
<<I rode a bus for two hours every day for nine years.>>

Wow.  Grades 4 to 12? [please, no jokes about repeating years]  In Georgia?  How did you feel about it?  What was the racial composition of the school you attended?  Did your attitude towards blacks change during the years of your bussing?

I just read recently that the vast majority of bussing involved black kids bussed to white schools.  Was that true in your case too, were there also blacks riding busses going in opposite directions to yours?

<<I don't credit that with preventing me from developing racism.>>

Well the purpose wasn't to change hearts and minds, it was to equalize educational opportunities.

<<So when my Father told me that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a hero , or my mother told me that everyone deserves my respect from the first it made a diffrence.>>

What did they tell you about Herman Talmadge?  What did they tell you about Lester Maddox?




Yes I was born in 59 , I remember every school ay beginning with a prayer , I remember the beginning of deseregation was when our teaching staff integrated.

My parents were frm central Alabama but My father was very polticly opinionated so he discussed politics with us as much s we could understand. He thought Lester Maddox was over rated  , he thought LBJ was a gangster ,I don't rmember discussing Talmage but he was a big backer of Bo Calloway. 
http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Multimedia.jsp?id=m-957
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Callaway

Quote
Callaway gave up his House seat to run for governor of Georgia in 1966, making him the first Republican nominee for Governor in Georgia since 1876.[2] He won a plurality over segregationist Democrat Lester Maddox in the general election, but a write-in effort in support of liberal former Governor Ellis Arnall denied Callaway a majority of votes. Under Georgia's election law then in effect, the state legislature was required to select a governor from the two candidates with the most votes. Dominated overwhelmingly by Democrats, the legislature selected Maddox.


My Mother was just a good and honest Christian who didn't  teach me to disrespect people .

Michael Tee

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2007, 01:17:36 PM »
<< I remember every school day beginning with a prayer >>

Yeah, me too.  Standing up first thing every morning for The Lord's Prayer.  And God Save the King.

Your dad thought worse of LBJ than he did of Lester Maddox.  "Overrated" is about the weakest form of criticism I could imagine.  Maddox was basically saying that any black who wanted to be recognized as equal to a white man should be beaten with an axe handle. But he sure appealed to Southerners.  I guess because they loved states' rights so much.  Not because they were racists.  That would be an absurd thing to say.  The axe handles were a sign of love.

Plane

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2007, 01:30:05 AM »
<< I remember every school day beginning with a prayer >>

Yeah, me too.  Standing up first thing every morning for The Lord's Prayer.  And God Save the King.

Your dad thought worse of LBJ than he did of Lester Maddox.  "Overrated" is about the weakest form of criticism I could imagine.  Maddox was basically saying that any black who wanted to be recognized as equal to a white man should be beaten with an axe handle. But he sure appealed to Southerners.  I guess because they loved states' rights so much.  Not because they were racists.  That would be an absurd thing to say.  The axe handles were a sign of love.



You know so little of these two men.
Have you ever heard of Bo Calloway before?

Lester was an honest man who was wrong , LBJ was not so wrong , but he was not so honest either.
Maddox was better than his predicessors and more honest than his successors , I have to disagree whith his assertions that a restraunt owner should have the right to refuse service , but as govenor what did he do that Jimmy Carter Did not?

Michael Tee

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2007, 01:39:52 AM »
<<You know so little of these two men.
<<Have you ever heard of Bo Calloway before?>>

Honestly, no.  But then i googled him and I didn't see one thing that he did or stood for that I thought was admirable or a benefit to mankind.  He was the first Republican governor of his state in a long time.  Probably since Reconstruction.

<<Lester was an honest man who was wrong , LBJ was not so wrong , but he was not so honest either.>>

WRONG?  He thought black Americans should be beaten with axe handles for daring to assert their right to be served in a public restaurant.  That goes way beyond "wrong."  That's a lot worse than guessing at the wrong number of legs on a dung beetle.


<<Maddox was better than his predicessors and more honest than his successors . . . >>

Considering who his predecessors and successors were, that's the most dubious form of praise I've ever heard.

<< I have to disagree whith his assertions that a restraunt owner should have the right to refuse service . . . >>

Refused service? Are you kidding?  He said they should be beaten with axe handles!!,

<<but as govenor what did he do that Jimmy Carter Did not?>>

I don't know what he did AS governor, but he got to BE governor by threatening to beat up people with axe handles.  Fuck this guy, he should have been strung up.

Plane

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Re: Resegregate
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2007, 01:54:43 AM »
<<You know so little of these two men.
<<Have you ever heard of Bo Calloway before?>>

Honestly, no.  But then i googled him and I didn't see one thing that he did or stood for that I thought was admirable or a benefit to mankind.  He was the first Republican governor of his state in a long time.  Probably since Reconstruction.

<<Lester was an honest man who was wrong , LBJ was not so wrong , but he was not so honest either.>>

WRONG?  He thought black Americans should be beaten with axe handles for daring to assert their right to be served in a public restaurant.  That goes way beyond "wrong."  That's a lot worse than guessing at the wrong number of legs on a dung beetle.


<<Maddox was better than his predicessors and more honest than his successors . . . >>

Considering who his predecessors and successors were, that's the most dubious form of praise I've ever heard.

<< I have to disagree whith his assertions that a restraunt owner should have the right to refuse service . . . >>

Refused service? Are you kidding?  He said they should be beaten with axe handles!!,

<<but as govenor what did he do that Jimmy Carter Did not?>>

I don't know what he did AS governor, but he got to BE governor by threatening to beat up people with axe handles.  Fuck this guy, he should have been strung up.

Lester Maddox ran aganst corruption , his most positive achevement was the reduction of speed traps , you have not quoted him here. His Ax handle noteriety is the main thing I think he got wrong , but he was no more wrong about race than you are about economics , a person has to be tolerant of such foibles.



Bo Calloway ran on the principal that the state should not be an impediment to the honest asparations of Negro people and won a plurality . He was antipodal to Lester Maddox , so the Democratic machine that ran Georgia in that time was not about to allow him to assume the governorship on the strength of merely getting more votes..