Author Topic: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge  (Read 2388 times)

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BT

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From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« on: June 30, 2007, 01:06:24 PM »
From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge

By Michael J. Totten
Frederick and Kimberly Kagan have written a very worthwhile piece about the strategy underpinning the United States military?s surge in Iraq.

    The new strategy for Iraq has entered its second phase. Now that all of the additional combat forces have arrived in theater, Generals David Petraeus and Ray Odierno have begun Operation Phantom Thunder, a vast and complex effort to disrupt al Qaeda and Shiite militia bases all around Baghdad in advance of the major clear-and-hold operations that will follow. The deployment of forces and preparations for this operation have gone better than expected, and Phantom Thunder is so far proceeding very well. All aspects of the current strategy have been built upon the lessons of previous successful and unsuccessful Coalition efforts to establish security in Iraq, and there is every reason to be optimistic about its outcome.

I?ll be honest here. ?Optimism? and ?Iraq? in the same sentence sound ludicrous to me unless we?re talking about Kurdistan. Too many times I naively believed the U.S. was ?turning the corner? on the insurgency, only to later feel like a sucker. Don?t be a sucker is perhaps the best one-sentence advice I can give to anyone who chooses to engage or even dabble in Middle East politics. I learned that one several times from experience.

At the same time, though, I know that conflict does not equal failure. And lack of victory in the middle of a war doesn?t pre-ordain failure at the end of a war. Otherwise it would not be the middle.

Insurgencies are monstrous things. A few days ago Algerian Minister of Culture Khalida Toum said the Islamist insurgency war in that country, which killed 150,000 people and is only just now winding down, was like ?ten years of 9/11 and nobody offered their condolences.?

Some insurgencies are broken in less than ten years. Israel put down the Palestinian intifada much quicker than that. The Lebanese Army, which is terribly weak, has mostly eliminated Syria?s proxy Fatah Al Islam in less than two months. So who knows? Maybe the U.S. will pull it off.

So many mistakes have been made in Iraq that I don?t even know how to count them. I?m also, to again be totally honest, not qualified to judge every mistake as a mistake. I?m not an ignoramus about the military and war, but I?m far indeed from being a general. And the only war zone I?ve been to in Iraq so far is Kirkuk.

What?s encouraging about the surge is that it?s the product of a hard learning experience from American military commanders who have been watching what works and what doesn?t.

The essay by the two Kagans is worth reading in its entirety because they analyze the military?s past mistakes and show how the lessons learned then are being applied to the surge now. They look at the botched and successful campaigns in Fallujah, Najaf, Sadr City, Tal Afar, the Upper Euphrates, Ramadi, and Baghdad.
Here is what they wrote about Ramadi:

    Early in 2006, the U.S. military command withdrew the additional forces introduced to support the elections, and thereafter resisted all suggestions of a more active posture or a larger American presence. In 2006 the focus was on training the Iraqi military and transitioning responsibility for security to the Iraqis. It was hoped that the results of the 2005 elections would lead to the political progress that was seen as the key to reducing violence, and Generals John Abizaid and George Casey believed that an active American presence was an irritant that caused more trouble than it cured. They also feared that American forces conducting counterinsurgency operations would allow the Iraqi forces to lie back and become dependent on the Coalition. The overall U.S. posture in the first half of 2006, therefore, remained largely defensive and reactive, and the military command aimed to reduce the number of American forces in Iraq as rapidly as possible.

    In the meantime, the situation was deteriorating dramatically. Al Qaeda terrorists destroyed the Golden Dome of the al-Askariya Mosque in Samarra (a Shiite shrine in the predominantly Sunni Arab province of Salahuddin), and a wave of sectarian violence swept Iraq. Within days more than 30 mosques had been bombed, and death squads began executing civilians across the country in large numbers in tit-for-tat sectarian murders.

    The failure to follow up either on the successes in Falluja in 2004 or on the beginnings of clearing operations in the Upper Euphrates in 2005 allowed Anbar Province to sink deeper into the control of Sunni insurgents and al Qaeda terrorists. As late as August 2006, the Marine intelligence officer for the province declared that it was irretrievably lost to the enemy.

    Nevertheless, the Marines and Army units in Anbar began a series of quiet efforts to regain control that ultimately led to spectacular and unexpected success. They began to engage local leaders in talks, particularly after al Qaeda committed a series of assassinations and other atrocities against tribal leaders and local civilians as part of an effort to enforce their extreme and distorted vision of Islamic law. U.S. forces under the command of Colonel Sean MacFarland also began a quiet effort to apply the clearing principles honed through operations in Falluja, Sadr City, and Tal Afar to Ramadi. There were never enough forces to undertake such operations rapidly or decisively, and success never appeared likely, at least to outside observers, who focused excessively on the force ratios.
    But the effort was successful beyond all expectations. The tribal leaders in Anbar came together to negotiate an accord that ultimately produced the Anbar Awakening, an association of Anbar tribes dedicated to fighting al Qaeda. Recruiting for the Iraqi Security Forces in Anbar increased from virtually zero through 2006 to more than 14,000 by mid-2007. As the 2007 surge forces augmented U.S. troops in Anbar and began to change the political dynamic in Iraq, efforts to clear Ramadi and bring overall violence in the province under control also peaked. As New York Times reporter John Burns noted after a recent visit to Ramadi, Anbar's capital has "gone from being the most dangerous place in Iraq, with the help of the tribal sheikhs, to being one of the least dangerous places." And the Anbar Awakening movement has spread to Sunni tribes in neighboring areas. Parallel organizations have developed in Babil, Salahuddin, and Diyala provinces, and even in Baghdad. As the new strategy of 2007 took hold, U.S. forces found that they could even negotiate and work with some of their most determined former foes in the Sunni Arab insurgency--groups like the Baathist 1920s Brigades that once focused on killing Americans and now are increasingly working with Americans to kill al Qaeda fighters. Coalition operations in Anbar, which looked hopeless for years, have accomplished extraordinary successes that are deepening and spreading.

Just about anything can happen in Iraq. The Anbar Awakening may not last. Empowered Sunnis in that province may end up gunning for the Shia for all anyone knows.

But if anything can happen, it may just yet last. Iraqi Kurds fought a pointless civil war in the 1990s after they were liberated from Saddam Hussein before they matured into the political grown-ups they are today. The Lebanese fought an Iraq-style civil war for fifteen years, but almost none ? not even Hezbollah ? want to go back to that even after the Syrian regime has spent years trying to get them fighting again.

Iraqis have disappointed and made suckers of many of us. But they aren?t robots of perpetual war any more than the Kurds or Lebanese were.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001479.html

Michael Tee

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2007, 05:30:52 PM »
What is it about the American mind that thinks that although Americans can learn from their mistakes and correct their technique, the enemy cannot?

The argument here seems to be all about tactics.  The Americans pursued the wrong tactics, but now they've found their groove.  They'll pursue the right tactics.

Conversely, the enemy pursued the wrong tactics.  I think fundamentally he's saying that the fundamentalists (al Qaeda in Iraq) pissed off the secularists (the local sheikhs.)

Looking beyond tactics, what the guy is really saying is that America can pick a side in a civil war, make alliances and crush their enemies in Iraq one at a time.  What that entails is America, a colonialist power, can subdue a Middle East state, pick a puppet or compliant ruler, and leave the place in good hands. 

Put that way, the tactics are basically a side issue.  The British couldn't do it.  The Americans haven't been able to do it yet.  I just don't see it happening.  The Iraqis are smarter than the Americans because they're on their home turf.  They'll make whatever alliances suit them from time to time but none of them have the wish to become an American satellite, only to crush their domestic enemies.  Everybody knows it's only a matter of time before the U.S. bugs out.  They always have and they always will.  So what they tell the Americans today is not what will necessarily apply tomorrow.  This whole thing is a doomed effort and everyone can smell the stench of failure and defeat.  Or at least that's how I see it.  They'd have to be nuts to hitch their wagons to an American star.  Time is running out and everyone can see it.

gipper

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2007, 06:22:30 PM »
I disagree both with the article BT has presented and the analysis Michael provides. Not only from cold, hard experience but also from the actual number of boots on the ground, the quest to unearth, capture and kill the radical fundamentalists (and their collaborators) in this present campaign, which is sure to migrate to new locales as the mission unfolds, HAS to met met with an abundance of caution (and prayer). Domestic indicators like Senator Lugar's recent call for redeployment -- the wise counsel of a veteran foreign policy thinker, who is no liberal -- virtually demand caution, not anticipatory celebration at the least imagining of an excuse. And I disagree vehemently with Michael's colonialist diagnosis as to what the US is about. For this aspect of my comments, I draw the presumption the other way. Regardless of error of entry, mismangement of mission and incidental parallels to former colonialist excesses, none of those matters -- especially the latter in Michael's naked ipse dixit -- are the prevailing reality now. What drives the US is leaving a stable (that is, non-failed) state, in the process preserving as much innocent life as possible, and then largely leaving Iraq hopefully with a populace and thus a government disposed at least to meet us half-way in matters of state. Painting a ghoulerie of bloodthirsty, avaricious Americans simply seeking their advantage in a circumscribed cosmos of rampant greed and naked power is an alienated man's caricature that mature, responsible people can't afford.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 06:49:15 PM by gipper »

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2007, 07:04:43 PM »
The Brits did in fact, impose a king upon Iraq, and he did stay there for a spell. I bet the US would be gleefully frabjous if they could do something like this.

I don't think most (or even many) Americans want a colonial regime imposed on Iraq, but you had better believe that this is EXACTLY what Juniorbush and Cheney (and their allies in the oligarchy) want. I doubt that this will be the result, but this is what they wanted
when they mongered this war, and it is still what they would consider to be a 'victory'.

The only precedent that might be other than 'bugging out' would be an extended occupation of the sort that was imposed on Korea. I don't think that this will happen, though. The US had some very close allies in the South Koreans, and there is no one remotely similar that has any serious influence in Iraq, so far as I can tell.

When Petreus and the Administration speak of Korea, this is the threat that they are aiming at their enemies (and the Israelis, who would love an Arab state that was even a teensy bit friendly to them).

 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2007, 08:44:55 PM »
I am just glad that commanders on the ground are given enough free reign to prosecute the war as it unfolds without interference from politicians at home that the chances of success no matter how defined increase greatly.

War should never be prosecuted based on opinion polls and personal gain.

gipper

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2007, 08:54:56 PM »
But they should almost always be pursued with caution ... and perspective.

BT

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2007, 10:25:22 PM »
But they should almost always be pursued with caution ... and perspective.


Why?


Michael Tee

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2007, 12:07:32 PM »
<<Regardless of error of entry . . . >>

As long as the entry is regarded as an "error," it will be difficult if not impossible to analyze the situation correctly.  IMHO, to understand the situation one has to start from the premise that there was nothing "erroneous" in the U.S. entry into Iraq.  The invasion of Iraq was a preconceived idea forming part of a coherent post-Cold-War geopolitical strategy conceived by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowicz, Feith et al., in the 1990s and explicitly formulated as such by an actual organization which they founded, the Project for a New American Century, PNAC, which simply cannot be ignored.  The project itself makes a good deal of sense geopolitically or geostrategically, but is flawed in two major respects: (a) it grossly overestimates American power and/or underestimats the power of a guerrilla resistance and (b) it is morally abominable.  I would guess that the moral flaw posed absolutely no problem to the progenitors of the Project, as they themselves are amoral criminals who have absolutely no moral compass of their own, and they counted (correctly as it turns out) on the corrupt MSM to "sell" their war to the American people.

<<What drives the US is leaving a stable (that is, non-failed) state, in the process preserving as much innocent life as possible, and then largely leaving Iraq hopefully with a populace and thus a government disposed at least to meet us half-way in matters of state.>>

Here you have the essence of another misconception, one that would prove a fatal flaw to the Project, were the real objectives to be as domer supposes them.  The problem being that Iraq is fundamentally unstable as a state, and always will be so, due to internal  social and religious contradictions.  The notion of a "stable state" that is "disposed at least to meet us half-way in matters of state"  (and let's be honest, NOBODY is going to shell out half a trillion bucks for  half-way compliance from a piss-ant country of only 23 million Arabs, they are after a state that will comply with U.S. foreign policy directives same as Egypt, Jordan or Saudi Arabia, and nothing less) is attainable in only one way, and that is the way that has already been demonstrated for us by Saddam Hussein: a secular Sunni dictatorship run by a small tight clique of ruthless psychopaths related to one another by kinship or clan ties that cannot be penetrated from the outside and prepared to shell out substantial portions of the national wealth for an all-encompassing social welfare state that provides free education and medical care based on socialist principles.

<<Painting a ghoulerie of bloodthirsty, avaricious Americans simply seeking their advantage in a circumscribed cosmos of rampant greed and naked power is an alienated man's caricature that mature, responsible people can't afford.>>

I congratulate you, domer, on your choice of the word "ghoulerie" which, with its elements of the supernatural and the disgusting combined, makes it a very powerful repellent factor.  Stuck onto my analysis of the subject, it associates my analysis with both rotting cadavers and high-flown fantasy, reason enough to reject my analysis on an emotional basis alone.  "Bloodthirsty" just adds to the caricature of my ideas, it's so hard not to take the word literally - -  to the image of eating rotting cadavers, one superimposes the image of drinking blood.  Very persuasive.

As much as I admire domer's picturesque depiction of my analysis, a masterpiece of subliminal persuasion and a welcome departure from his sometimes turgid prose, the time has come to bring this discussion back down to earth.  I have described nothing more and nothing less than the policies of imperialism, greed and neo-colonialism and their executors, which, deplorable though they may be, are very much a part of real life and nothing near as fantastical and otherworldly as domer would like to pretend.  If domer wishes to take issue with that analysis, let him do so upon some kind of rational basis, rather than depicting the whole thing as a story lifted from Marvel Comics' Tales of the Crypt.

I do like domer's appeal to "mature, responsible people."  It's kind of similar to my own "sane and normal people" which I've used to good effect from time to time, but either way, domer, IMHO, most mature, responsible, sane and normal people now realize that Bush & Co. manufactured a fear of WMD to create an excuse to invade Iraq to gain control of the oil.  It's not only a simple story, it's an old story, it's a story that has already happened before and will no doubt happen again.  There's nothing at all exotic about it - - it doesn't in any way involve ghouls or drinking blood (except in the eyes of its detractors) and in all probablility it's exactly what's happened.

There IS a reason, however, why people really don't want to accept that explanation, even in the face of overwhelming evidence in support of it - - and that is because of its profound immorality.  You see, something that immoral demands an immediate negative response, which carries with it the stigma of appearing to be "unpatriotic."  And there are a lot of people who would rather walk barefoot over broken glass than be considered "unpatriotic."  So they choose to believe instead that the United States and its officials could never commit such a blatant act of immorality.  Its revered Army could never lend itself to participate in such immorality.    So they choose instead to ridicule the very idea.  If the invasion is not immoral, they don't have to oppose it.  They don't have to oppose "their" government.  They don't have to appear "unpatriotic."  How convenient for them.  What a relief.

sirs

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2007, 06:46:54 PM »
<<Regardless of error of entry . . . >>

IMHO, to understand the situation one has to start from the premise that there was nothing "erroneous" in the U.S. entry into Iraq.  The invasion of Iraq was a preconceived idea forming part of a coherent post-Cold-War geopolitical strategy conceived by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowicz, Feith et al., in the 1990s and explicitly formulated as such by an actual organization which they founded, the Project for a New American Century, PNAC, which simply cannot be ignored. ......  I have described nothing more and nothing less than the policies of imperialism, greed and neo-colonialism and their executors, which, deplorable though they may be, are very much a part of real life and nothing near as fantastical and otherworldly as domer would like to pretend. ........ It's kind of similar to my own "sane and normal people" which I've used to good effect from time to time, but either way, domer, IMHO, most mature, responsible, sane and normal people now realize that Bush & Co. manufactured a fear of WMD to create an excuse to invade Iraq to gain control of the oil. 

This is one of the reasons Tee's so entertaining to read.  Someone who tries so hard to promote himself as an intellectually savvy sane "truth teller", completely demonstrating how so uncredible he is, when it comes to anything/everything Bush, especially as it relates to the current war in Iraq.  Granted his above tee-leaf conclusions & opinions have holes in them the size of Dodgers' Stadium, yet the abstract certainty he prefaces such asanine conclusions, is indeed fun to marval


There IS a reason, however, why people really don't want to accept that explanation, even in the face of overwhelming evidence in support of it...

Ummm, because there's even more overwhelming fact, evidence, and logic to the contrary perhaps??  That would be the 1st and most easily referenced explanation



 
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2007, 01:08:53 AM »
<<This is one of the reasons Tee's so entertaining to read.  >>

I'm so glad that I can be entertaining to someone of such superior intellectual accomplishments.  I am immensely flattered.

<<Someone who tries so hard to promote himself as an intellectually savvy sane "truth teller" . . . >>

Yes, it's true that I try to back up my opinions with facts, but I wouldn't say that I was "trying hard," because generally the facts are pretty obvious and well-known to most individuals of even modest intelligence.

<< . . . completely demonstrating how so uncredible he is, when it comes to anything/everything Bush>>

I guess asking for a specific example of my "uncredible"-ness would be pointless.

<< . . .  especially as it relates to the current war in Iraq. >>

Ahh, I was especially "uncredible" there, was I?   Perhaps I didn't show enough faith in the WMD fairy tale?  Or was it my scoffing at the idea that all Bush wanted was to bring a little democracy to poor, democracy-starved Iraq that made me so "uncredible?"   Or was it when I laughed out loud at the "Mission Accomplished" banner?  But, geeze, I'm really sorry to be so "uncredible," sirs - - you gotta give me another chance, man.  I'll TRY to believe next time, sirs, I really, really, really will.

<<Granted his above tee-leaf conclusions & opinions have holes in them the size of Dodgers' Stadium . . . >>

Oh, my.  Where?

<< . . . yet the abstract certainty [with which] he prefaces such asanine conclusions . . . >>

Not sure if I really understand what "abstract certainty" is, but assuming it's something akin to absolute certainty, I presume sirs is referring to my treating the existence of the Project for a New American Century, and the involvement of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowicz and Feith in it, and the PNAC's written proposal for an invasion of Iraq as if they were all fact instead of left-wing fabrication.                     

<< . . . is indeed fun to marval>>

Oh, yes, I'm sure you find a great many things "fun to marval," sirs  Next time you're in New York, be sure to check out the Penguin Pool in the Central Park Zoo, sirs.  You'll just double over.  It's also "fun to marval."

sirs

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2007, 11:35:07 PM »
<<This is one of the reasons Tee's so entertaining to read.  Someone who tries so hard to promote himself as an intellectually savvy sane "truth teller" . . . >>

Yes, it's true that I try to back up my opinions with facts, but I wouldn't say that I was "trying hard," because generally the facts are pretty obvious and well-known to most individuals of even modest intelligence.

Tee, everyone is entitled to their opinion.  No one is entitled to their own set of "facts"


<< . . . completely demonstrating how so uncredible he is, when it comes to anything/everything Bush>>

I guess asking for a specific example of my "uncredible"-ness would be pointless.

"Bush lied us into war" ... "It's all for the oil" ... "American Military is a bunch of low hanging murdering rapists" ... "The south, especially just about any republican in the south, is Racist" ... "The election was stolen" ...yada, blah, etc.  The examples are endless


<< . . .  especially as it relates to the current war in Iraq. >>

Ahh, I was especially "uncredible" there, was I? 
 

On a scale uncredible of 1-10, you'd be somewhere around 27. I do believe


<<Granted his above tee-leaf conclusions & opinions have holes in them the size of Dodgers' Stadium . . . >>

Oh, my.  Where?

Pick any of those above, which have already been debunked too many times to count, with your famous rebutting comebacks of either "Well, they're (Dems as well as GOP) are just trying to cover their asses", or "They (Bush, the military, and Co) have it all nicely covered up", or "When you see the atrocities back in Vietnam....."(as if that had any relevence now), or of course everyones favorite, "Abu Graib", as if that answer is supposedly some smoking gun.  It doesn't even qualify as a squirt gun


<< . . . yet the abstract certainty [with which] he prefaces such asanine conclusions . . . >>

Not sure if I really understand what "abstract certainty" is, but assuming it's something akin to absolute certainty, I presume sirs is referring to my treating the existence of the Project for a New American Century, and the involvement of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowicz and Feith in it, and the PNAC's written proposal for an invasion of Iraq as if they were all fact instead of left-wing fabrication.   

Close.  Your twisted version of "facts", which inironically happens to equate in most every way to LW fabrication                   

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2007, 09:25:36 AM »
<<No one is entitled to their own set of "facts">>

We try to share them but right-wing crypto-fascists don't seem to be too interested in our facts.  They prefer to make up their own or just to ignore the ones that won't go away.

<<Bush lied us into war" ... "It's all for the oil" ... "American Military is a bunch of low hanging murdering rapists" ... "The south, especially just about any republican in the south, is Racist" ... "The election was stolen"  .>>

Well: 1.   Bush DID lie you into war and most people believe that now, so what is so "un-credible" about saying so?

2.  It's not ALL about the oil, it's also about geostrategic control of an important region, setting examples to others; how I would rather put this is, it was NEVER about "WMD" and it never was and never will be about bringing the "gift" of "democracy" to the poor, democracy-starved people of Iraq.

3.  American military is a bunch of low-hanging murdering rapists - - bit of an exaggeration, they can't ALL be rapists and thugs, but for the most part they're a pretty ugly bunch of guys you would NOT want to meet up with in a dark alley and as far as low-hanging fruit goes, that is EXACTLY what they are.  You certainly won't find them overloaded with the cream of the universities.  Lynndie England would probably qualify as one of their more intellectually gifted.

4.  White Southerners, by and large, are racists.  Nothing new there, but it might be slowly changing.

5.  The elections WERE stolen.  What is so "un-credible" about that?

<<Pick any of those above, which have already been debunked too many times to count, with your famous rebutting comebacks of either "Well, they're (Dems as well as GOP) are just trying to cover their asses", or "They (Bush, the military, and Co) have it all nicely covered up", or "When you see the atrocities back in Vietnam....."(as if that had any relevence now), or of course everyones favorite, "Abu Graib", as if that answer is supposedly some smoking gun.  It doesn't even qualify as a squirt gun>>

Nice rant, but in terms of pointing out "holes you can drive a truck through" in any one of my positions, it's a total flop.  Oh well.  It's not as if I expected better.


<<Close.  Your twisted version of "facts", which inironically happens to equate in most every way to LW fabrication  >>

YAWWWWNN.  More of same.  Drivel.  Let me know when you have any specific instance of how I twisted facts or exactly what the LW is supposed to have "fabricated."Your problem, sirs, is that you don't seem to have too many facts at your disposal which back up your beliefs.  Of course you don't - - your beliefs are totally absurd.  But at the same time, you can't attack MY beliefs with facts, because the facts support them.  So you are driven back to rely upon empty invective, "twisted version of facts," "LW fabrication" and yet never seem to be able to point out exactly what facts were "twisted" by the LW (because none were, at least none were that are material to any issue under discussion) nor can you come up with facts (Dan Rather apart) that the LW "fabricated."  And even the fabrications of Rather have absolutely nothing to do with any of the issues you mentioned - - Bush lying you into war, military thuggery, etc. 

sirs

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2007, 03:44:38 AM »
Wed night, time to take out the garbage

<<No one is entitled to their own set of "facts">>

We try to share them but right-wing crypto-fascists don't seem to be too interested in our facts.  They prefer to make up their own or just to ignore the ones that won't go away.

Talking about yourself again?  Projection is an intriguing act to witness


Well: 1.   Bush DID lie you into war and most people believe that now, so what is so "un-credible" about saying so?

Your OPINION that Bush lied us into war is duely noted.  The FACT that he did is pretty much null & void, especially when you try to apply the lie to him alone, while everyone else on this planet apparently just seemed to make a mistake


2.  It's not ALL about the oil, it's also about geostrategic control of an important region, setting examples to others; how I would rather put this is, it was NEVER about "WMD" and it never was and never will be about bringing the "gift" of "democracy" to the poor, democracy-starved people of Iraq.

Well, since it was ALWAYS about the WMD and everything else followed that, that'd be another uncredible OPINION on your part


3.  American military is a bunch of low-hanging murdering rapists - - bit of an exaggeration, they can't ALL be rapists and thugs, but for the most part they're a pretty ugly bunch of guys you would NOT want to meet up with in a dark alley and as far as low-hanging fruit goes, that is EXACTLY what they are. 

Thank you.  You make my point better than I ever could dream of


4.  White Southerners, by and large, are racists.  Nothing new there, but it might be slowly changing.

Based of course on the point I've been referencing, Tee's apparent opinionated say so, MINUS any assemblence of facts or evidence to support such.....equals uncredible


5.  The elections WERE stolen.  What is so "un-credible" about that?

The fact that report after report, commission after commission, study after study concluded they WERN'T, and no amout of repetition saying they were is going to turn that fact around.  This is the part where we apply that projected commentary of yours above...."They prefer to make up their own or just to ignore the ones that won't go away."  Fits like a glove right here.  You see, in your twisted reality, Bush DID steal the elections.  Thus, EVERYTHING that demonstrates he didn't must be ignored, and your 1 paltry article that opines that he did must be the gospel truth because.......well, because Tee says so.  It's what also fuels the rest of your uncredible diatribes. 

But at least your consistent & entertaining at the same time.  And that's not an easy accomplishment     :D

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2007, 01:48:21 PM »
<<Talking about yourself again?  [that right-wingers don't seem to be too interested in the facts.]  Projection is an intriguing act to witness>>

No, actually, the grammatical structure of the sentence indicates pretty clearly who I was talking about.  Projection is indeed interesting to witness, and you seem to be one of its leading practitioners, but I don't know where you'd find any projection in what I just wrote.

<<Your OPINION that Bush lied us into war is duely noted.  The FACT that he did is pretty much null & void, especially when you try to apply the lie to him alone, while everyone else on this planet apparently just seemed to make a mistake>>

Well that is just not a correct interpretation of my posts.   NEVER have I said that Bush was the only liar in the rush to war.  He was supported by liars in his own cabinet, liars in the MSM and liars in the Democratic "opposition" party which in fact stands for pretty much the same things as the Republican Party.  Any half-way intelligent high-school kid could have realized that the claim that the U.S.A. was so threatened by IRAQ! that it had to invade them was just totally bogus, bullshit and incredible.   Any person in a position of authority and especially a Democrat would have HAD to have not only realized the total absurdity of what Bush was saying but would also have been fully aware of Bush's total lack of personal integrity AND the lies of the prior Bush Republican administration (consisting of many of the same individuals as the later Bush administration) in  tricking the nation into the first Gulf War.  With that kind of awareness, every legislator who supported the war originally was probably lying if he or she supported the "President's" reasons for the war.

<<Based of course on the point I've been referencing, Tee's apparent opinionated say so, [that white southerners are mostly racist bastards] MINUS any assemblence of facts or evidence to support such.....equals uncredible>>

BWAHAHAHAHAH!  The formulation and amazing success of the Republican Party's "Southern Strategy" converting a "solid south" of white racism into a Republican stronghold for the likes of Republican Trent Lott, Republican Senator Macacawitz (who committed, unfortunately for him, the fatal error of showing his racism in public and failing to speak in code) is - - in wacko "conservative" circles - - considered a "lack of evidence."


<<The fact that report after report, commission after commission, study after study concluded [the elections weren't stolen] and no amout of repetition saying they were is going to turn that fact around.>>

Speaking of amounts of repetition, your oft-repeated claim of "report after report, commission after commission" would seem to indicate an endless stream of reports and commissions rolling off the presses every Wednesday and Friday.  I don't think there were any more than two, which came to forgone conclusions because when Gore decided not to contest the matter further, the fix was in.  A partisan Supreme Court, divided 5-4 to hand the victory to their anointed and the Democrats decided for whatever reasons, corrupt and cowardly as they usually are, that the charade of "opposition" would  end then and there.  (BT will try to tell you that the decision was broader than 5-4, but it wasn't: the broader decision was that the Florida election was defective; the 5-4 split was over whether correction of the defects should be left to the Florida State Courts to resolve or whether SCOTUS itself should resolve the problem.  Amazingly enough, the "conservative" majority, usually so enamoured of "states' rights," decided that THIS time, the states did not have the power to regulate their own elections.)  Yeah, that was one STOLEN election alright.  And please don't tell me there's no facts to back that up, I just GAVE  you the facts.

<<Well, since it was ALWAYS about the WMD [and never about oil] and everything else followed that, that'd be another uncredible OPINION on your part>>

If it was "ALWAYS" abut the WMD, the U.S. would have turned around and gone home immediately after the invasion.  And here's another pesky little FACT that you right-wing fruit-bats never mention:  If it's not about the oil, how come the passage of a hydrocarbons law is one of the "bench-marks" that have to be attained before the U.S. will consider going home?  And here's another one:  if the US is so concerned about human rights and democracy in the Middle East that they will spend half a trillion bucks to invade and subdue Iraq, how come they have not made any comparable effort in any other Middle Eastern country, and how come they are still supporting the 40-year-old Israeli military occupation of the three million Arabs in the West Bank?

<<  This is the part where we apply that projected commentary of yours above...."They prefer to make up their own or just to ignore the ones that won't go away."  Fits like a glove right here.  You see, in your twisted reality, Bush DID steal the elections.  Thus, EVERYTHING that demonstrates he didn't must be ignored, and your 1 paltry article that opines that he did must be the gospel truth because.......well, because Tee says so.  It's what also fuels the rest of your uncredible diatribes. >>

Nice theory except that I just showed you how the election WAS stolen.  Oh, well, there's always another post where you can claim once again that the claim was made without any evidence.  A conservative majority that suddenly abandons its historically demonstrated proclivity to favour "states' rights" is probably just exercising some scholarly logic that's perfectly consistent with its core beliefs about Constitutional law, right?

<<But at least your consistent & entertaining at the same time.  And that's not an easy accomplishment  >>

Why thank you, sirs.  I was going to say just the same thing about you.

Plane

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2007, 02:33:50 AM »
Quote
  I do like domer's appeal to "mature, responsible people."  It's kind of similar to my own "sane and normal people" which I've used to good effect from time to time, but either way, domer, IMHO, most mature, responsible, sane and normal people now realize that Bush & Co. manufactured a fear of WMD to create an excuse to invade Iraq to gain control of the oil.  It's not only a simple story, it's an old story, it's a story that has already happened before and will no doubt happen again.  There's nothing at all exotic about it - - it doesn't in any way involve ghouls or drinking blood (except in the eyes of its detractors) and in all probablility it's exactly what's happened.


How did  Bush & Co.manufacture a fear of WMD before Bush became president?


"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." ? President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." ? Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/mostert/040816