Author Topic: Just read it  (Read 3857 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2007, 12:57:47 PM »
<<Wishing for a peaceful Iraq has been consistent with my position since day one. >>

Wishing for peace while supporting the war-makers.  THAT was exactly what was so hilarious in the previous posts.

Hitler wished for peace too.  He just wanted everyone to stop fighting him.  Peace is a great thing to wish for.  If they gave out Nobel Peace Prizes for wishing, you guys would be first in line for one.

BT

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2007, 01:09:03 PM »
You can't have law without enforcement.

Shame the Iraqi's can't step up and seize the opportunity given to them like the kurds did.


sirs

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2007, 01:21:15 PM »
Wishing for a peaceful Iraq has been consistent with my position since day one.

100% concur.  I guess if Tee could talk to his homies at AlQeada and lay down their arms, we might just get that
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2007, 01:22:10 PM »
<<You can't have law without enforcement.>>

Law?  What law?  The same law that says it's OK for Hitler to invade Poland or the Japs to invade Manchuria or the U.S. to invade Iraq?  What fucking law would that be?

<<Shame the Iraqi's can't step up and seize the opportunity given to them like the kurds did.>>

When you're occupied by a foreign army, you can't step up to shit.  The Kurds aren't occupied by anyone.  The Iraqi army left a long time ago and they're on their own.

Michael Tee

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2007, 01:24:41 PM »
<<100% concur.  I guess if Tee could talk to his homies at AlQeada and lay down their arms, we might just get that>>

Lemme see if I got this right.  YOU invade THEIR country, so THEY should lay down THEIR arms???  Yeah, that'll happen.

LMFAO once again.  WOW, are you guys fucked up.  Terminally.

BT

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2007, 01:30:10 PM »
The Iraqi's have the tools of a free election and the means to form a coalition government. Largely without US interference.

And that is the opportunity they squander.

.

Michael Tee

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2007, 04:18:52 PM »
<<The Iraqi's have the tools of a free election and the means to form a coalition government. Largely without US interference.

<<And that is the opportunity they squander. >>

Boy, I don't know what kind of dreamworld you inhabit, but I wish they'd let the rest of us in.  What kind of free election are they likely to have with a civil war going in concurrently with a foreign invasion in which the occupiers now seem to be arming both sides?

At this point, it should be clear to everyone that you can't have a democracy unless there's a broad consensus in favour of it.  The body politic has to more or less agree, and I don't mean by a margin of 51% over 49%.  If you have a well-defined ethnic or religious group that is convinced that democracy means their permanent subjugation to another, bigger ethno-religious group, you can't have democracy.  It's a pre-requisite of democracy that both factions have to be sold on the idea.  Without the consent of all the factions, your "democratic" government will never attain legitimacy.  Without legitimacy, there is no respect for law or constitution and you will attain nothing more than a state of permanent anarchy.

The Sunni will never consent to being subjugated by the Shi'a.  If democracy means their permanent subjugation, then they will always seek a different form of government.

Maybe if you had a society where Sunnis, Shi'ia and Kurds voted "as Iraqis" rather than to advance their own religious or clan  interests, "democracy" could work out in theory (leaving aside the obvious rejoinder that the last thing in the world that the U.S. foreign policy establishment really wants to see in Iraq is a genuine, functioning democracy) but I think what you'd find is that tribal, clan and (to a lesser extent) religious ties trump the so-called "national interest" every time.  Each party expects the other parties to rank their respective interests that way, as they themselves do.  One-man-one-vote is a formula for Shi'ite dominance (more accurately, tribes and clans practising the Shi'ite form of Islam) in perpetuity over the less numerous other groups.  Or Shi'ites in alliance with Kurds, whose only national interest is in "Kurdistan."

You are dealing with ancient social forces pre-dating the United States of America by a good many centuries  that just aren't gonna break apart because some American hot-shot tells them he knows a better way.   For these guys to break with the old ways would mean splitting cousin against cousin and cousins to these people are a lot more closely tied together than they are in America.  I'm sure that left to their own devices, over time, they would "come to their senses" and adopt a more modern social organization (one is probably in the process of forming already) but these things take centuries. This is what happened in Britain - - the various monarchs and subjects of the Heptarchy didn't just coalesce one fine day around a new constitution and decide, hey let's all put aside our differences and become just one big happy family. 

BT

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2007, 05:03:51 PM »
Quote
Boy, I don't know what kind of dreamworld you inhabit, but I wish they'd let the rest of us in.  What kind of free election are they likely to have with a civil war going in concurrently with a foreign invasion in which the occupiers now seem to be arming both sides?

The same kind of election they had in the last couple of years where citizens thumbed their nose at the militias and proudly flashed the purple finger. Elections that had turnouts that put the US to shame.

Michael Tee

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2007, 05:13:23 PM »
<<The same kind of election they had in the last couple of years where citizens thumbed their nose at the militias and proudly flashed the purple finger. Elections that had turnouts that put the US to shame.>>

How many Shi'ites voted and how many Sunni?   Of the Sunni who voted, how many would do so again?

It's no mystery why the Shi'a would vote.  They're gonna win the election, they're gonna run the country.

The Sunni didn't turn out in such big numbers the first time.  Still some of them must have felt a great degree of optimism at the time - - free of Saddam and finally able to vote.  Wonderful.  Today I doubt if many Sunni would see it that way.  Reality has set in.  They know a free vote means they'll be submerged by the Shi'a.  They've seen what happened already.  To the extent that the "Iraqi government" weeds out Mehdi Army influence, it's not a reflection of "democracy" but of U.S. power behind the scenes.  The very means by which sectarianism is purged delegitimizes the government that it is being purged from.


BT

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2007, 05:49:37 PM »
People vote or don't vote for their own reasons. The important thing is that they were given the opportunity to vote and it certainly wasn't the US or their lackey dogs standing in their way.

Like i said the opportunity was there. Their choice to squander it or not.


Michael Tee

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2007, 07:28:49 PM »
What opportunity?  For the Sunni, it's an opportunity to legitimize a foreign system of government that dooms them to permanent subjugation.  You really think they're THAT stupid?

BT

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2007, 11:49:37 PM »
Is Iraq genetically incapable of putting together a coalition government. We make it work with Irish Americans, Italian Americans, German Americans, Native Americans, African American, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans  and other assorted interest groups.

Are Sunni's not Iraqi's? Are Shiite's not Iraqi's?


BT

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2007, 12:27:30 AM »
UPDATE: A journalist whose name you'd recognize emails:

    Yon's story doesn't get attention because it is humiliating.

    It is humiliating because it is obvious that we media ? and our allies in the state department, the legal trade, the NGOs, the Democratic Party, the UN, etc., - can?t do squat about such determined use of force.

    Our words, images, arguments and skills can?t stop the killing. Only the rough soldiers and their guns can solve the problem, and we won?t admit that fact because the admission would weaken our influence and our claim to social status.

    So we pretend Yon?s massacre ? and the North Korean killing fields, the Arab treatment of women, the Arab hatred of Israel, etc. - doesn?t exist, and instead focus our emotions and attention on the somewhat-bad domestic things that we can ?fix? with our DC-based allies. Things such as Abu Ghraib, wiretapping, etc. When we ?fix? them, then we get status, applause, power, new jobs, ego, etc.

    Please don?t be surprised. We media are an interest group not much different from the automakers, the unions, and the farmers.

Sadly, this makes sense. And this fits the pattern.

http://instapundit.com/archives2/006827.php

Michael Tee

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2007, 12:58:42 AM »
<<Are Sunni's not Iraqi's? Are Shiite's not Iraqi's?>>

You tell me.  In 1918 they were three provinces of the Ottoman Empire.  Never was an Iraq.  A few years later, the British and French drew a few lines on the map and voila - - there is Iraq!  There are people living today who can actually remember when "Iraq" was created.  For awhile, it had a monarchy given to it by the British - - some Arab who had been promised Syria in return for helping T.E. Lawrence and then found Syria was going to be given to France.  So they made him a King of a newly-conquered region (Mesopotamia) whose inhabitants didn't know him and didn't give a shit either way.

Iraq has no national history in the sense that the U.S.A., Britain, France and Russia have national histories.  It's an ancient civilization but it is not a nation.  Except in a very technical and artificial way.

The U.S. can pull in all kinds of different nationalities, races and religions because it stands for something, something bigger than all of them.  It stands for the ideals of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights.  People will gladly put aside their other differences to be a part of something that's bigger than themselves, but it also has to be bigger than their own sub-groups.  Most Americans are proud to be associated with the idea of America, and with good reason.  Same cannot be said of Iraq.  Nor can it hold together by virtue of common ethnicity and/or religion like some European countries like Poland or Romania or Lithuania,with little enough to be proud of in terms of ideals or history but a common bond of ethnicity and/or religion and a common history of victimization by surrounding, more powerful neighbours.

Have you ever seen an older Iraqi's birth certificate?  It's pretty interesting in its own way.  It looks a lot like the birth certificate of a person of the same age born in Jamaica or India or Palestine or Nigeria and it's printed on the same shitty-looking paper and then you realize they all look the same because they were all designed in the same Colonial Office in London and probably printed there too.  But there are some differences too.  The Iraqi certificates have a box for the tribe and the clan the guy was born into.  That's just as important, perhaps even more important, than who the father and mother and grandparents are.  Sunni Iraqis - - I don't know any Shi'ites - - are Muslims in more or less the same way that bacon-eating Jews are Jews.  The religion is a part of who they are and they are more or less familiar with the rituals of the religion although they may or may not practice them.  They are a pretty secular bunch, certainly no strangers to alcohol, and they might even like to believe in an Iraq like the one you describe, where everyone's an Iraqi first and foremost and the secondarily a Shi'ite, Sunni, Kurd,  or even, God forbid, a Christian or a Jew.   On a personal level they get along fine with all individuals, but if you ask them about Shi'ites in general, my impression is that they feel most of them are uneducated and overly religious and simplistic in their beliefs.

Most importantly they KNOW that the Shi'ite Iraqis will vote in blocs as dictated by their religious leaders, who are also to a large extent their political leaders as well.  The Shi'ites will vote for their own.  The Sunni also will vote for clan and tribe representatives knowing that their first duty is to their clan and tribe, not to "Iraq," whatever "Iraq" may be.  They had no problem with an "Iraq" so long as it ran on principles - - anti-democratic for sure - - which always made sure that their tribes and their clans got to call the shots.  NOt the more numerous Shi'ite tribes.  The Shi'ites are happy with "democracy," however, because it will ensure their tribes' and clans' dominance over the Sunni tribes.  NOT because they think "one man one vote" is intrinsically a beautiful and good thing.

From what I see of most Anglo-Saxons, they live pretty individualistic lives, their second and third cousins are not a huge part of them and large family gatherings are few and far between.  I would bet that Iraqis in general through social habit, gatherings, shared housing and shared neighbourhoods,  have become much more closely involved with their second, third or even fourth cousins than Americans ever have been or will be.  Politics take on a whole new personal meaning.  A lot more people have a personal stake in politics because that next oil minister just might be someone who has known them since infancy and could do a hell of a lot of favours for them.  So that ministry falling into another tribe's hands is definitely not a good thing.

Your problem is one of incredible naivete and innocence.  Some might call it ignorance.  "Why can't they just be sensible like Americans and look at things the way we do?"  They are NOT Americans.  They DON'T look at things the way you do.  They were raised the way they were, and you were raised the way you were.  This is not a genetic thing.  John Sununu and Ralph Nader have no genetic predisposition to "bad citizenship."  But you are taking a system that works fine for YOU and can't understand why they don't believe it won't work fine for THEM.  Ironically, the Iraqis best adapted to run plays from your playbook are the Sunnis, and of them, the most likely candidates would be the former members of the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party, which stressed modernity, as well as national and international loyalties over religious ones.

One last point.  America did not come together from a diverse bunch of people.  America was basically a creation of white, Anglo-Saxon Protestants from Great Britain who brought the ideals of their home country to America and rebelled when denied what they saw as their natural rights as Englishmen.  Others who came later were attracted to the ideals and the accomplishments of the new state and they were all too ready to sacrifice most if not all of their former national identities in order to fit into the newer and better model of a nation-state.  This is obvously not the case in Iraq.

BT

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Re: Just read it
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2007, 01:07:24 AM »
Forget national pride then. You make a well thought out argument against it.

What about the core essence of all humans, self preservation?

The only way this will work is through coalition and compromise.

Otherwise the Sunni's don't stand a chance.