Author Topic: Which Belief System or Orientation Best Reflects America's Structural Values?  (Read 2156 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

gipper

  • Guest
There are two choices: Universalism or secularism, the only "soups" in which everything else can cook.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Strict adherence to the teaching of Christ works fine.

Christ was tolerant.

Lanya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3300
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Secularism is a good base.
Home cooks can add their favorite spices and ingredients, and none of the rest of us have to suffer it.
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
What the poo is "universalism?"

The problem with Jesus is that damn little is really known about him, and he apparently said some truly wacko things.
Every believer has his or her own vision of Jesus.

For a perfect being, his public relations campaign was both incomplete and vague.

Lots more people know what Coca-Cola is and what is it supposed to be, and Coca-Cola has never made any claim of divinity or perfection.

I am all for politics excluding religion. It's not necessary and causes far more problems than it solves to include it.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
I have heard of the Unitarian Universalist Church, of course. The contention here was that a government could only be based on secularism or universalism, and this hardly corresponds to the religious makeup of the US.

The Unitarians are as much of an anathema to the fundamentalists and evangelicals as the secularists.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

gipper

  • Guest
I won't argue the niceties of the twin religious guarantees in the First Amendment: free expression and no establishment of religion. Coupled with other organic concepts found in various documents such as the pursuit of happiness, religious toleration (from the Rhode Island colony, thereafter "adopted" as a general, if informal, principle), equal protection of the laws, the practices the very concept of democracy imposes, and so forth, the First Amendment guarantees clearly eschew any officially predominant religion, or its promotion, and further guarantees (to the extent fairness and civility can be enforced either officially or through mores and folkways derived from the nation's core principles) the ability of each belief system to seek its own rightful level, its place in the life of the nation, and the respect its system is entitled to.

To run such a complex system, your "public" ideology has to be one that promotes the values just listed. That can be done in one of two ways, but certainly not by trumpeting the triumph of Christianity, say, or one of its more aggressive sects. Aside from being inimical to our values, such a stance is absurd. The two ways are the ones I mentioned in the opening post here: universalism (admitting a deity, or not, but respecting each good faith effort to come to terrms with ultimate questions), or secularism (remove the concept of deity entirely from official promotion, but provide a milieu (much like universalism can) where such beliefs and devotions can flourish.

While as a strictly logical matter, it seems to me, the two approaches should be functionally and efficaciously equivalent, in practice, as the law has developed thus far, the nod seems to have been given to secularism as the official milieu on the theory that the simple promotion of religion at all, as Universalism does, even though equally, comes too close to "establishing religion," a prohibited activity and consequence.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
did the 14th negate the founders constitutional beliefs?


gipper

  • Guest
You'll have to expand on that idea and, preferably, discuss how it interplays with the ideas I just put forth.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Should the enforcement of Christianity , Hinduism or Communism be considered diffrently than the enforcement of Universailism or the enforcement of Secularism?

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Quote
You'll have to expand on that idea and, preferably, discuss how it interplays with the ideas I just put forth.

If i had my druthers Universalism would be prefered over secularism. I think secularism and by extesion atheism is just another religion that by court decree has become the established religion. And i think the 14th was the key that unlocked the door to the courts being able to do this. The 14th was the beginnings of a strong central government, the rise of corporate power and the demise of local rule.

That was my point. And was that what the founders intended?


Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Secularism is a good base.
Home cooks can add their favorite spices and ingredients, and none of the rest of us have to suffer it.


What if the secularism is demanded and your own spices are forbidden?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
The question's a no-brainer.  The Constitution is secular.  It meant to establish a secular Republic.

It's secular for good reason.  The Founders saw the folly of theocraticallly-based governments.  Wanted to avoid the pitfalls.  This was an experience-based document, not a Bible-based document.

gipper

  • Guest
That's the given wisdom, and practice. But not much would sacrificed (and I propose much might be gained by a reinvigoration of spiritual life) by adopting universalism as an organizing principle, which openly embraces every good-faith sspiritual orientation, including agnosticism and atheism.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Quote
The question's a no-brainer.  The Constitution is secular.  It meant to establish a secular Republic.

The Constitution is no more secular than you are.

The Constitution is nuetral. No established religions. Staes were allowed to do as they saw fit.

One of the first acts of the first congress was to appoint chaplains paid by the public purse.

Hardly a secular action.