Author Topic: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create  (Read 1624 times)

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Lanya

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Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« on: July 18, 2007, 04:37:38 PM »

WP: [link[   Intelligence puts rationale for war on shaky ground. "'We're creating terrorists in Iraq, we are creating terrorists outside of Iraq who are inspired by what's going on in Iraq,' [says Dan Benjamin]. 'The longer we stay, the more terrorists we create.'" More from Fred Kaplan. [link]
Posted by Laura at 08:44 AM

http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/006445.html
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Plane

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2007, 04:42:47 PM »

WP: [link[   Intelligence puts rationale for war on shaky ground. "'We're creating terrorists in Iraq, we are creating terrorists outside of Iraq who are inspired by what's going on in Iraq,' [says Dan Benjamin]. 'The longer we stay, the more terrorists we create.'" More from Fred Kaplan. [link]
Posted by Laura at 08:44 AM

http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/006445.html


Well that is a thesis , what supports this idea?

Mucho

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2007, 06:33:00 PM »

WP: [link[   Intelligence puts rationale for war on shaky ground. "'We're creating terrorists in Iraq, we are creating terrorists outside of Iraq who are inspired by what's going on in Iraq,' [says Dan Benjamin]. 'The longer we stay, the more terrorists we create.'" More from Fred Kaplan. [link]
Posted by Laura at 08:44 AM

http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/006445.html




Well that is a thesis , what supports this idea?

The obvious support is that there are even more terrorists now than before 9/11 in action. They have totally regrouped snd are at full strength in Pakistan as well as very strong in Iraq and now coming to get US again here.
What Bushidiot did was through gas on a fire, but he likes to waste that stuff anyway.

Universe Prince

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2007, 08:09:16 PM »

Well that is a thesis , what supports this idea?


From the Christian Science Monitor:

      A classified National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) contends that the war in Iraq has increased Islamic radicalism, and has made the terror threat around the world worse. Based on information from US government officials who had seen the document and spoke on condition of anyonymity, The New York Times reports that the NIE document, titled "Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States," says the war plays a much more direct role in the spread of Islamic radicalism around the world than has previously been indicated by the White House, or in a recent report by the US House intelligence committee.

The intelligence estimate, completed in April, is the first formal appraisal of global terrorism by US intelligence agencies since the March 2003 invasion of Iraq, and it represents a consensus view of the 16 different spy services inside government. The estimate asserts that Islamic radicalism, rather than being in retreat, has metastasized and spread around the globe.

An opening section of the report, "Indicators of the Spread of the Global Jihadist Movement," cites the Iraq war as a reason for the diffusion of jihad ideology. The report "says that the Iraq war has made the overall terrorism problem worse," one US intelligence official said.
      

That is from 2006. Whole article at the other end of this link.

And then there is this, posted today (July 18, 2007) at the Seattle Times:


      Al-Qaida is still plotting a major attack on the United States and will "probably" use its Iraqi affiliate, a combat-tested terrorist group that sprang up after the 2003 U.S.-led invasion, to carry it out, a new U.S. intelligence report warned Tuesday.

The National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) made it clear that Osama bin Laden's militant Islamic network, bolstered by the Iraq war and growing anti-U.S. anger in the Muslim world, remains a potent danger nearly six years after President Bush launched his "Global War on Terror" in response to the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
      

Whole article at the other end of this link.
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Michael Tee

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2007, 09:53:40 PM »
<<Well that is a thesis , what supports this idea?>>

1. common sense
2. experience

Plane

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2007, 01:31:46 AM »

Well that is a thesis , what supports this idea?


From the Christian Science Monitor:

      A classified National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) contends that the war in Iraq has increased Islamic radicalism, and has made the terror threat around the world worse. Based on information from US government officials who had seen the document and spoke on condition of anyonymity, The New York Times reports that the NIE document, titled "Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States," says the war plays a much more direct role in the spread of Islamic radicalism around the world than has previously been indicated by the White House, or in a recent report by the US House intelligence committee.

The intelligence estimate, completed in April, is the first formal appraisal of global terrorism by US intelligence agencies since the March 2003 invasion of Iraq, and it represents a consensus view of the 16 different spy services inside government. The estimate asserts that Islamic radicalism, rather than being in retreat, has metastasized and spread around the globe.

An opening section of the report, "Indicators of the Spread of the Global Jihadist Movement," cites the Iraq war as a reason for the diffusion of jihad ideology. The report "says that the Iraq war has made the overall terrorism problem worse," one US intelligence official said.
      

That is from 2006. Whole article at the other end of this link.

And then there is this, posted today (July 18, 2007) at the Seattle Times:


      Al-Qaida is still plotting a major attack on the United States and will "probably" use its Iraqi affiliate, a combat-tested terrorist group that sprang up after the 2003 U.S.-led invasion, to carry it out, a new U.S. intelligence report warned Tuesday.

The National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) made it clear that Osama bin Laden's militant Islamic network, bolstered by the Iraq war and growing anti-U.S. anger in the Muslim world, remains a potent danger nearly six years after President Bush launched his "Global War on Terror" in response to the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
      

Whole article at the other end of this link.


So Al Queda is stronger now , than it was when it bombed our Embassys , our warship "Cole", our Kobar tower barracks and of course the attack on 9-11?

I find this assertion to be redculous , a lot of them died and a lot more will die this does not strengthen them .

A lot of their arms , property and finances has been captured or detroyed , this does not strengthen them.

One could argue that their role as David in a contest with Goliath has a continueing romantic appeal that helps them recruit and replace their losses , but they had this before we ever returned their attacks .

Michael Tee

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2007, 12:18:44 PM »
<<I find this assertion to be redculous , a lot of them died and a lot more will die this does not strengthen them .>>

Missing from your calculations is the rate of replenishment.  Iraq has given their recruiting a huge shot in the arm which of course is the explanation for their resurgence.  What will be even bigger will be the "copters on the embassy roof" moment

Universe Prince

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2007, 12:45:05 PM »

I find this assertion to be redculous


Possibly it is. The 1962 N.I.E., from what I've read about it, said the Soviet Union would not put missiles in Cuba. But the N.I.E. is produced as the authoritative assessment of the whole of the U.S. Intelligence Community. I find myself unwilling to dismiss that out of hand.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2007, 01:03:17 PM »
What will be even bigger will be the "copters on the embassy roof" moment

================================================
The new Baghdad Embassy has a really huge roof. I am envisioning a real successful evacuation here, with a lot better security to keep undesireable Iraqi flunkies out of the US, and a place to put all the helicopters, so they won't have to ditch them in the sea.

At least some Vietnamese actually invited the US to help them in Vietnam. In Iraq, the US invaded like gangbusters, declared all members of the ruling party (pretty much everyone who knew how to be a policeman, an economist, and accountant) unemployable un-persons, and then assembled a government of Iraqis who were only skilled at bickering. Now the US govt is claiming that the Iraqis are just too ungrateful for destroying their country, because those in the government refuse to act like an organized government, and the people of Iraq refuse to pay much attention to this government because they have no electricity for those 120 degree days, no potable water, and everyone is shooting at everyone else.

On the surface, it looks like Vietnam all over again. But with the important difference that we wanted TWO Vietnams and got one. When we leave Iraq, I see two or three countries.

Some of them are so ungrateful that they point out that during Saddam's reign they had better services and no one was shooting at anyone (other than the odd American plane).

Now if Turkey could just annex Kurdistan Iraq, they would have oil and enough money to impress the Europeans and not look like beggars when they apply for EC membership. My guess is that in a few years, the Kurds would have better representation as a province of Turkey than they ever had with all those Arabs. The EC would make sure of it.

It's not like the Kurds were united politically or even linguistically. Their main unity seems to be a sort of anti-fashion sense among their women, the worst dressed females this side of burkhaland. 

Of course, Halliburton would not get the oil. So I am sure that the US oligarchy will be against this.


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gipper

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2007, 01:17:31 PM »
I tend to disagree with the bald proposition that "the longer we stay, the more terrorists we create" because it does not take into account the effects an incompetent disengagement (mirroring the incompetent management of the war as a whole) would have on radical morale and thus recruiting. Not being a soothsayer, I can't reliably predict the various outcomes for radical recruiting that the various types of disengagement could have. But it seems certain to me in my circumscribed and speculative world that if a rout or resounding defeat is perceived (or spun into perception), then a stampede of newly-minted radicals should be expected to follow for an appreciable time. (And it is true, of course, that an ill-conceived war, which has been mismanaged in a host of crucial respects, is the cause of the upsurge in the first place. But that is not the question.)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2007, 02:02:31 PM »
The society of the Arab Middle East is a society of vendettas and vengeance. If you kill someone, the male relatives of the family are bound by the norms of their culture to avenge that death. So if an American soldier kills an Arab, whether it is for cause, an accident, or just out of sheer cussedness, this will most likely result in a relative of the deceased to kill an American soldier.

Victory occurs when there are no more male members left able to carry out revenge.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Lanya

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2007, 02:29:17 PM »
Bush's Osama Problem

By Dan Froomkin
Special to washingtonpost.com
Wednesday, July 18, 2007; 2:00 PM

Nearly six years after President Bush pledged to capture him "dead or alive," Osama bin Laden is not only still at large, but he and his al-Qaeda organization have apparently benefited greatly from Bush's decision to invade Iraq.

That's not just me saying so. It's the inevitable conclusion from the declassified summary of a White House intelligence report released to great fanfare yesterday.
   
White House Watch     
 
Bush's Osama Problem

Bush's Middle Eastern Folly

It turns out that bin Laden and his al-Qaeda leadership are safely ensconced in Pakistan. They're still trying to attack us. And the U.S. occupation of Iraq has provided them with a potent rallying cry, recruiting tool and training ground they would not have had otherwise.

The White House has time and again used the specter of al-Qaeda to cow Capitol Hill into doing its bidding. Similarly, Bush and his aides have lately gone to great lengths to conflate the multifaceted insurgency in Iraq with al-Qaeda. After all, when it's Bush vs. al-Qaeda, how many Americans will side with al-Qaeda?

The report's release shot al-Qaeda back into the headlines. But this time, the al-Qaeda stories have a potentially devastating twist for the administration: As it turns out, Bush's policies may have helped bin Laden more than they've hurt him.

The Analysis

Michael Abramowitz writes in The Washington Post: "The White House faced fresh political peril yesterday in the form of a new intelligence assessment that raised sharp questions about the success of its counterterrorism strategy and judgment in making Iraq the focus of that effort.

"Since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, President Bush has been able to deflect criticism of his counterterrorism policy by repeatedly noting the absence of any new domestic attacks and by citing the continuing threat that terrorists in Iraq pose to U.S. interests.

"But this line of defense seemed to unravel a bit yesterday with the release of a new National Intelligence Estimate that concludes that al-Qaeda 'has protected or regenerated key elements of its Homeland attack capability' by reestablishing a haven in Pakistan and reconstituting its top leadership. The report also notes that al-Qaeda has been able 'to recruit and indoctrinate operatives, including for Homeland attacks,' by associating itself with an Iraqi subsidiary.

"These disclosures triggered a new round of criticism from Democrats and others who say that the administration took its eye off the ball by invading Iraq without first destroying Osama bin Laden's organization in Afghanistan."

Abramowitz also notes that "Al-Qaeda's participation in the Iraqi violence has figured particularly heavily in recent administration arguments for a continued U.S. troop presence there, because White House strategists regard it as a politically salable reason for staying and continuing to fight."

But, he writes: "Some terrorism analysts say Bush has used inflated rhetoric to depict al-Qaeda in Iraq as part of the same group of extremists that attacked the United States on Sept. 11 -- noting that the group did not exist until after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003. These analysts say Bush also has overlooked the contribution that U.S. actions have made to the growth of al-Qaeda in Iraq, which has been described as kind of a franchise of the main al-Qaeda network headed by bin Laden."

Abramowitz quotes former CIA analyst Paul R. Pillar as saying: "Iraq matters because it has become a cause celebre and because groups like al-Qaeda in Iraq and al-Qaeda central exploit the image of the United States being out to occupy Muslim lands."

[...............................]]
long article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2007/07/18/BL2007071801472.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
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Michael Tee

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2007, 02:49:22 PM »
It stands to reason that if the original al Qaeda was composed of individuals resentful of U.S. bases in Saudi Arabia and U.S. influence in the region which was generally of a behind-the-scenes type, an outright invasion of Arab lands and an attempt to dictate to them the type of government they should have would be much more infuriating and lead to many more recruits.

As far as domer's theory that copters on the embassy roof will lead to even more recruits, that's a given.  Unfortunately it's unavoidable now, and the only question is whether al Qaeda should kick off its copters-on-the-roof recruitment drive at a point where the U.S. has killed off 100,000 Iraqis, or wait till they have killed off 200,000 Iraqis.

Richpo64

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2007, 05:13:21 PM »
>>They have totally regrouped snd are at full strength in Pakistan as well as very strong in Iraq and now coming to get US again here.<<

I'm curious.

Does that bother you? Do you have a solution?

yellow_crane

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Re: Longer we stay, more terrorists we create
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2007, 07:45:47 PM »
The society of the Arab Middle East is a society of vendettas and vengeance. If you kill someone, the male relatives of the family are bound by the norms of their culture to avenge that death. So if an American soldier kills an Arab, whether it is for cause, an accident, or just out of sheer cussedness, this will most likely result in a relative of the deceased to kill an American soldier.

Victory occurs when there are no more male members left able to carry out revenge.



I saw that movie. 

It was called "Barbarosa."

What you have just said about them you could largely say about the Mexican culture, which is, and very much unlike our own, still very much intact.

In fact, it could be said for most cultures, many gone now, who operated with a mind to honor.

Not entirely sure that evolving away from this to witnessing the rape of the planet by multi-corps is really any kind of progress.   As Zapata said, 'it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees.'