When is war worth the fight?

[Cynthia]

Let's face it, this war was ill managed at worst and worth the "effort" at best. Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudia Arabia, Jorden, and Iran......pawns in the game. ...a game now fired up by gang member mentality.
The Bush administration should have supplied this "war" with money, troops, equipment and a plan. Clearly, this is where we *(USA) went wrong, imo. The intent for our invasion was to take down a dictator.....albeit the dictator who was not directly responsible for 9-11, but a brutal dictator. The question is......who's war is this anyway? Is it a war that the United States provoked and "asked for it"? Is it a war of gangs "terorists" who just want to find a place on the planet to belong and feel powerful? Is this war worth the effort?
Senario: We pull out of Iraq. The gangs will regroup....and be damned the western civilization!!!!!!

[Michael Tee]

<<The intent for our invasion was to take down a dictator.>.

Why was it this dictator out of all the dictators on the face of the earth that the U.S. wanted to take down?

[Cynthia]

I, for one, having been married to an Iranian years ago have nothing but love and respect for the cultures of the middle east. In fact so much so that when I learned in the late 90's of the abuse and torture of the middle eastern women in Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries in the outskirts of the middle east......I was happy that at least one dictator was downed'. ...perhaps not out due to the hatred for women in many areas of the mid east...but at least he was OUT. I applauded that ousting, if you will.
I realize that oil probably played a big part, not to mention the fact that there was reportedly MWD used once upon a time against innocent victims in his own land.....that said, why NOT that dictator? Granted we should have been more equipted to enter that war from the get go and involved more support world wide....which we did not.....and we could have at least put a dent in the terrorism that surrounds every corner of the mid east.
The failure of the war, imo, is not because we entered it in the first place, it's that we were not prepared. Can't win or teach or eat lunch is you're not prepared.....it's vital.
Now, we are up against anti American rhetoric in and out of our own nation.....and we will be blamed for future terrorism.
That's not right and it will probably come down to us against them....and THEY will win, while Europe and other nations will be laughing at how we "got ours".
Why the hell would anyone in this country support the leftist crap that could be fuel for the terrorists plight? Why?
Will we as spoiled as we are, have to wake up one day and see that our cities are being bombed, night clubs, airlines, malls etc...and then POINT POINT POINT....I TOLD YA SO blame against Bush??
We are a bunch of wimps. We needed to be ready to take down anyone in and around the middles east who had any sort of threat in their agenda against the west.....
Instead..we put in a few troops here and there with a mentality of WE GOT EM...and now look at us.
The problem was not why we entered Iraq...or Afghanistan..Iraq was inevitable.
The problem was HOW

[Cynthia]

The problem was HOW we entered the campaign.
Poor planning and lack of support....is not a way to win any event....war or checkers.

)|( sorry ,....i hit the wrong key and the previous post went out there without my completion...

and I was prepared. go figure!! ha!!!!
Bush wasn't the brightest president in the land...and he will go down for the count.
Now, we have to readjust to a wave, AND I MEAN WAVE or new terror....and I'll be damned if I am going to blame America for the crap that sneaks around and bombs innocent victims....

Americans were so much more united and not afraid to fight sixty years ago.
God, look at us now.....
We fight so damn much...it's wonder there isn't a reality show show about the ways of the political whining that goes on here.

OH, and why not take down an evil dictator the likes of Hitler....
Someone has to be in charge of the playground, M Tee.....that's a reality. There's always someone tougher and more powerful .
why the hell can't it be the United States. This I wonder...every time I hear our own people bitch about how America sticks its nose in too many faces world wide.....better us than those who walk children into Mosques hooked up to bombs....
Now we are looking over our shoulders.....gee....and that's something NEw?
No...and it wasn't something new on 9-11.
Someone has to be the best...it's nature. Human bloody nature.
We are a great nation and we have given a lot......let us not forget that.
I would say that it's sad we didn't have our ducks supplied before the row began in 03.
sad for those men and women who are being wasted away for a cause that we sit at our computers and bitch about......

Planning.....either do it or don't play the game.....Bush was ignorant. Yes, I'll say that.

[The_Professor]

Let's face it, this war was ill managed at worst and worth the "effort" at best. Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Iran......pawns in the game. ...a game now fired up by gang member mentality.
The Bush administration should have supplied this "war" with money, troops, equipment and a plan. Clearly, this is where we *(USA) went wrong, IMO. The intent for our invasion was to take down a dictator.....albeit the dictator who was not directly responsible for 9-11, but a brutal dictator. The question is......who's war is this anyway? Is it a war that the United States provoked and "asked for it"? Is it a war of gangs "terrorists" who just want to find a place on the planet to belong and feel powerful? Is this war worth the effort?
Scenario: We pull out of Iraq. The gangs will regroup....and be damned the western civilization!!!!!!

Nope.

The conquering of the 4th largest army in the world by THE largest army in the world was a piece of cake. That part went fantastic. The problem is that we disbanded the Iraqi armed forces, the only unifying force in the country. So, what did we have left? No one to run the country! We should have handed the baton to SOMEBODY we could watch and booked!

The average guy on the street unfortunately has it much worse now than before we went in. Less food, less electricity, less security, less schools, less safe water and on and on. The average guy on the street just wants to live a peaceful and unhindered life, raising his family the best he is able. Anything above that is pure gravy. We can't even guarantee his family will all be alive form one day to the next! And, we wonder why they hate us?

To "win" this conflict, it is imperative you win the confidence of this guy, the average guy on the street.  Lose it and you'll forever have momentous problems, unsolvable problems.

[BT]

To "win" this conflict, it is imperative you win the confidence of this guy, the average guy on the street.  Lose it and you'll forever have momentous problems, unsolvable problems.

Not that i am an expert on relationships, by any means shape or form, but it seems to me that threatening to break up and move out is hardly a way to instill confidence in your commitment. 

[Michael Tee]

<<Someone has to be in charge of the playground, M Tee.....that's a reality. There's always someone tougher and more powerful .
why the hell can't it be the United States.>>

Believe it or not, I wouldn't have a problem with that if the U.S. exercised its power wisely and justly.  I was in Amnesty International for 15 years in a fairly highly specialized unit dealing with certain aspects of, as it happened, the Saddam Hussein regime, and a few others just as bad.  And one of the most frustrating aspects of the work was that virtually all of it was NGO.  There were few if any governments in the world that were prepared to take any meaningful action to halt the torture and the U.S. government was definitely not interested.  When the issue was torture and murder, the U.S. was a model of respect for the sovereignty of the member states of the U.N. and for the non-interventionist Articles of the Charter of the United Nations.

When the demand for oil becomes more acute and the inhibiting influence of a rival superpower disappears, suddenly the U.S. is less committed than usual to respect for the sovereignty of the member states.  It's ludicrous to suppose that the U.S. presence in Iraq is NOT related to oil.

The U.S. is in charge of the playground and it supports the 40-year military occupation of the West Bank, the tyrranical torture-states of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait (probably Syria as well,) supported the Shah of Iran and his SAVAK secret police, probably the most hated and feared torturers in the region, supports the Israeli Mossad (allowed by their own Supreme Court to use torture) and basicall crushes the aspirations of all the people in the region, none more so than the miserable residents of the West Bank and Gaza.

Your "somebody must be the boss of the playground" is an overly simplistic rationalization that completely overlooks the many, many, many abuses, atrocities and injustices that the U.S. as boss of the playground has been guilty of and is still performing.  The other kids in the playground are getting sick of it and the bully may finally be in for some serious payback.

[Christians4LessGvt]

oh and one more thing, it solved British rule of this country

[The_Professor]

To "win" this conflict, it is imperative you win the confidence of this guy, the average guy on the street.  Lose it and you'll forever have momentous problems, unsolvable problems.

Not that i am an expert on relationships, by any means shape or form, but it seems to me that threatening to break up and move out is hardly a way to instill confidence in your commitment. 

Convince me that at this point in time, this is possible.

[BT]

Convince me that at this point in time, this is possible.

Are you asking me to prove your own point that:

To "win" this conflict, it is imperative you win the confidence of this guy, the average guy on the street.

The stories i have posted from Michael Yon paint an encouraging picture of what can happen when the villagers understand you are there to help. Look to Anbar and Baqubah for your templates.

[Michael Tee]

<<The stories i have posted from Michael Yon paint an encouraging picture of what can happen when the villagers understand you are there to help. Look to Anbar and Baqubah for your templates.>>

Stuff sounds like a pipe dream to me.  I remember the same kind of thing from Viet Nam.  Napalm the kids and then build the parents a new fishpond.  "We're here to help?"  You really think the villagers are so dumb they don't know what they're there for?

[BT]

Mikey,

If the stories aren't true you have nothing to worry about.

But if they are true and there is change afoot, your wish list is disintegrating before your eyes.

[Michael Tee]

What if they're true and they're only half the story, BT?

What if the villagers are saying all those nice things to the Americans and just biding their time?  Or what if the Resistance is just lying low and watching the collaborators come crawling out of the woodwork for now?  Watching and taking notes?

But I know what you're saying, BT.  Anything's possible.  The Americans can still win this one.  I know that too.  I just hope they don't.  It'll be the biggest and most violent rape of a country's natural resources since the Belgians got out of the Belgian Congo.

[BT]

Watch and wait.

You best hope the political clock in the US runs out of time in September, because i have a feeling if the surge is given more time we are in the midst of a major turnaround.

And if more word gets out about successes you might see a bigger change in the polls. Folks have a tendency to go with the side with the momentum.

[Michael Tee]

<<You best hope the political clock in the US runs out of time in September, because i have a feeling if the surge is given more time we are in the midst of a major turnaround.>>

You may well be right.  OTOH, these guys are world-class spinmeisters.  None better.  And this new batch of "light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel" good news just might be a very carefully-orchestrated campaign that puts the earlier "WMD" and "purple fingers" campaigns to shame.  You are dealing with master manipulators, with infinite resources at their disposal, and a willingness to say whatever it takes to keep their nefarious schemes on course.  Which of course is all that I hope it really  is.

<<And if more word gets out about successes you might see a bigger change in the polls. Folks have a tendency to go with the side with the momentum.>>

True, unfortunately.  People will go with a winner, even if the winner is a moral monster.  Hitler I suppose was the best example of that.  The people behind Bush are another.