Author Topic: * 755  (Read 6968 times)

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BT

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* 755
« on: August 04, 2007, 11:48:20 PM »
Barry Bonds just tied Hank Aaron's MLB homerun record.

Because of the steroids accusations will it be forever tarnished with an asterisk, much like Roger Maris with his *61 ?


« Last Edit: August 05, 2007, 01:26:18 PM by BT »

Universe Prince

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Re: *
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2007, 11:50:50 PM »

Because of the steroids accusations will it be forever tarnished with an asterisk, much like Roger Maris with his *61 ?


Why? Why do the steroids matter?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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BT

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Re: *
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2007, 11:55:14 PM »
Quote
Why? Why do the steroids matter?

Because in Baseball they are banned substances, much like using corked bats and spitters and other ways of cheating.

You OK with cheating?


Universe Prince

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Re: *
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2007, 12:19:41 AM »
No, I'm not okay with cheating. I get why things like corked bats are cheating. I get that banned drugs are cheating in that they're banned, and so therefore against the rules. But what I don't get is why they're banned. I guess I don't see steroids as cheating any more than practicing longer or using those fancy motion analysis machines to help with technique. All sorts of things are allowed that are done or used with intention to give individual players an edge in one form or another. So why are drugs off limits?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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BT

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Re: *
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2007, 12:32:13 AM »
Is steroid use about the individual or the team?

About the only time an individual comes into play in baseball is when they stand in the batters box and even then they do things to advance the teams goals, sacrifice flies and bunts come to mind. Hit and runs come to mind.




Universe Prince

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Re: *
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2007, 12:42:13 PM »

Is steroid use about the individual or the team?


Is practicing more than other players about the individual or the team? Is attempting to be a better player about the individual or the team? Shall we ban players attempting self-improvement?

Seems to me the better the individual plays, the better his contribution to the team. Is that not so?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: *
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2007, 01:05:51 PM »
Quote
Seems to me the better the individual plays, the better his contribution to the team. Is that not so?

Depends. Is a well played hit and run better than launching a flyball out at the fence. I would think so.

But we digress from the point. You question why steroids are frowned upon in sports. I question records being broken by cheating.

Apparently you excuse lawbreakers. Which seems to be at odds with your slams against the FBI.


Universe Prince

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Re: *
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2007, 01:39:03 PM »

Apparently you excuse lawbreakers. Which seems to be at odds with your slams against the FBI.


B'HUH? Who broke a law and when did I excuse them? And what does questioning the status of steroid use in sports have to do with my criticism of the FBI for contributing to wrongful imprisonment?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: * 755
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2007, 02:12:39 PM »
Steroids are against the law as evidenced by the BALCO investigation which Bonds is a major player.

Bonds allegedly broke the rules (laws) of the game. You seem to think what he did was no more egregious than taking extra batting practice.

and in the meantime you notice i am not bashing MLB for Bonds actions, yet you seem to have no problem bashing the FBI for the actions of Rico and company.





The_Professor

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Re: * 755
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2007, 04:36:05 PM »
Bonds will always have that asterisk next to his name, I bet. Too bad.
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gipper

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Re: * 755
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2007, 04:57:14 PM »
All rules have an origin of some kind or another. the anti-steroid rule is the consensus of the powers-that-be in baseball that use of this category of drugs alters the human body -- often in ultimately and even interimly deleterious ways -- such that the player himself, the very self, is not anymore the one responsible for the advances but the drugs themselves are disproportionately responsible. This leads, I suppose, to a deep pseudo-philosophic discussion of what exactly the "self" really is, and, more to the point for this present discussion, the limits that can legitimately be placed on its enhancement. Well, we can rest easy and assured that the "powers that be," in all the wisdom they might muster and the responsibility they might steward, have come to a definite, though interim, by the nature of things, conclusion, that -- hey -- based on what we know now, this is going too far for the would-be superman and the future raisin-ball. And it is their prerogative, duly arrived at. Do we need a rash of spectacles like that wrestler and his family? Show a little sophistication. Carrying a philosophy too far almost invariably leads to an absurdity, as here.

Universe Prince

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Re: * 755
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2007, 05:23:01 PM »

Steroids are against the law as evidenced by the BALCO investigation which Bonds is a major player.


As I recall, Bonds has not tested positive, nor has he been indicted. I think I'll wait until there is some evidence that Bonds broke the law before I consider him a lawbreaker. If you feel justified in deciding he is guilty even though he has not even been indicted, by all means, go right ahead. And by the way, what law banned steroids?


Bonds allegedly broke the rules (laws) of the game.


Allegedly. So far with no evidence to support the allegation.


You seem to think what he did was no more egregious than taking extra batting practice.


You're so close. If he broke the rules, then by all means, he should be punished. I think there ought to be some proof he broke them, however, before he is punished for doing so. In any case, I do think that using steroids in this sort of situation ought to be (did not say 'is, said 'ought to be') no more egregious than most of the other things players do to gain an edge, like getting in more practice, using hyperbaric chambers to heal faster, that sort of thing. I don't consider that cheating, and I don't see why using steroids should be cheating.


and in the meantime you notice i am not bashing MLB for Bonds actions, yet you seem to have no problem bashing the FBI for the actions of Rico and company.


There are some very important differences. One, whatever Bonds is doing, he is not acting in an official capacity on behalf of the MLB in a manner that imposes some action unfairly or unjustly on other people. Two, this is only baseball! Bonds's actions are not going to result in people going to jail for life. Bonds using or not using steroids is not even remotely comparable to the FBI framing four men for murder and then covering up the evidence for 30 years. It is (to use an apt metaphor) not even in the same ballpark.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2007, 08:38:16 PM by Universe Prince »
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Lanya

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Re: * 755
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2007, 05:29:06 PM »
  He was a good player before the steroid use.  Now, he's almost 2 hat sizes larger and a lot more bulked up. 
I loved the Killer B's.  But he deserves to have at least a * by his name in the history books.
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Universe Prince

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Re: * 755
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2007, 05:31:46 PM »

Carrying a philosophy too far almost invariably leads to an absurdity, as here.


I agree. Carrying your if-there-is-a-rule-there-must-be-a-good-reason-for-it philosophy to the extreme of suggesting we are not to question the powers that be is quite absurd.

Fishmonger, there is nothing wrong with questioning why something is the way it is. I'd be quite happy for someone to provide me with a reasonable answer. So far the because-it-is-now-shut-up and the it's-just-not-fair-how-dare-you defenses, at least as presented, have been underwhelming and unconvincing.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

gipper

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Re: * 755
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2007, 05:42:36 PM »
Find me a better way of expressing those thoughts -- or their opposites -- and I'll listen, poser.