Iran is going to do us in

[Michael Tee]

<<"I'm not a big fan of Iran and its government.  They're a bunch of torturers and murderers on a par with the U.S. Army itself. "

<<Laughable, MT. Not even close. Facts please....Facts to back up this outrageous statement. >>

Here's a FACT for you, Cynthia.  Zahra Kazemi.  Canadian journalist.  Google her.  Try to find the report of the doctor who examined her body.

[Plane]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahra_Kazemi

"Nineteen days later, she died in Iranian custody in Baghiyyatollah al-Azam Military Hospital. It is widely believed she was beaten to death; after initial denials, Iranian government sources (including Mohammad Ali Abtahi, the Vice President of Legal Affairs and Masoud Pezeshkian, the Minister of Health and Medical Education) later admitted that she had died of a fractured skull as a result of being hit in the head. Abtahi claims that he was under a lot of pressure to take back the acknowledgement, but he resisted it.

Her death and the subsequent burial in Iran sparked a sharp diplomatic response from Canada, .........."

[Michael Tee]

<<One would hope that  ademocratic government could be changed without resorting to mobbing the street.>>

Democratic government?  What government are you referring to?  Does the U.S. sponsor a puppet government in the Middle East that is a democracy?  Because if it does, I'm certainly not aware of it.

<<Establishing Democracy is attacking the root problem.>>

What's the root problem?


<<Attacking the regio for the sake of oil is a complete fiction . . . >>

On the contrary, it's the only reason that makes any sense at all.  All the other reasons advanced by the government of the U.S.A. for  invading and occupying Iraq are obvious bullshit.  They are simply unbelievable, and I have demonstrated that in numerous posts which analyze the various reasons and explain clearly how and why they have to be pure BS.   They are just ludicrous.

<< . . .  but it is a fiction that a lot of people beleive  so they die for it.>>

I think maybe what you're trying to say here is that the perception of the reason is more important than the actual reason.  I'd agree with that.  People live and die for their perceptions.  In this case the common perception happens to be the unadulterated truth.

[Plane]

<<One would hope that  ademocratic government could be changed without resorting to mobbing the street.>>

Democratic government?  What government are you referring to?  Does the U.S. sponsor a puppet government in the Middle East that is a democracy?  Because if it does, I'm certainly not aware of it.

[[[[[[[[[Israel?]]]]]]]]

<<Establishing Democracy is attacking the root problem.>>

What's the root problem?

[[[[[[[[[[[The dissatisfaction and frustration of the common man .]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]


<<Attacking the regio for the sake of oil is a complete fiction . . . >>

On the contrary, it's the only reason that makes any sense at all.  All the other reasons advanced by the government of the U.S.A. for  invading and occupying Iraq are obvious bullshit.  They are simply unbelievable, and I have demonstrated that in numerous posts which analyze the various reasons and explain clearly how and why they have to be pure BS.   They are just ludicrous.

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[No there is no reson to beleive that aggrandisement is intended, except prejudce.]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

<< . . .  but it is a fiction that a lot of people beleive  so they die for it.>>

I think maybe what you're trying to say here is that the perception of the reason is more important than the actual reason.  I'd agree with that.  People live and die for their perceptions.  In this case the common perception happens to be the unadulterated truth.



[[[[[[[[[[[[ That is an article of unsupported faith , isn't it?]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

[Michael Tee]

<<Nineteen days later, she died in Iranian custody in Baghiyyatollah al-Azam Military Hospital. It is widely believed she was beaten to death; after initial denials, Iranian government sources (including Mohammad Ali Abtahi, the Vice President of Legal Affairs and Masoud Pezeshkian, the Minister of Health and Medical Education) later admitted that she had died of a fractured skull as a result of being hit in the head. Abtahi claims that he was under a lot of pressure to take back the acknowledgement, but he resisted it.

<<Her death and the subsequent burial in Iran sparked a sharp diplomatic response from Canada, ..........">>
                                             -------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Toronto Star front-paged the story of the doctor who had seen her body.  It was much worse than the Iranian government has admitted.  Many fingers and toes were broken and many nails removed.  There were burns on her breasts.  Her vagina was torn, consistent with large-object rape.  There were bruises all over her body.

This was consistent with the mother's story, carried months earlier by the Star.  The mother said the ends of the fingers and toes were bandaged and she wasn't allowed to remove the bandages.

I don't see any difference at all between those fucking bastards and the U.S. Army.  That's why I'd like to see a U.S. invasion and may the worst man win.  The more of those bastards that kill each other off, the better off this world is gonna be.

[Michael Tee]

<<One would hope that  ademocratic government could be changed without resorting to mobbing the street.>>

Democratic government?  What government are you referring to?  Does the U.S. sponsor a puppet government in the Middle East that is a democracy?  Because if it does, I'm certainly not aware of it.

[[[[[[[[[Israel?]]]]]]]]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel a puppet government of the U.S.A.?  I think you've got that turned around a little.  The U.S.A. is more a puppet of Israel than Israel is of the U.S.A.  In any event, this is some democracy -- have you asked the three million West Bank Arabs how they are enjoying their democratic rights?

================================================

Q.  What's the root problem?

A.  [[[[[[[[[[The dissatisfaction and frustration of the common man .]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

Wow, what a cop-out.  All right, WHAT is the common man dissatisfied and frustrated about?
=======================================================================

[<<[[[[[[[[[[[[[No there is no reson to beleive that aggrandisement is intended, except prejudce.]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]>>

History is no reason.  Common sense is no reason.  Past imperialist predation by the same countries in the same region and even in the same country is no reason.  That the passage of a petrochemicals law is a benchmark along the road to U.S. withdrawal is no reason.  That the President and Vice-President of the U.S. have been personally involved in the oil industry is no reason.  That demand for oil by the U.S., the E.U., China and India is growing much faster than new supplies is no reason.  I think I'm starting to see a pattern here.  NOTHING that has ever been advanced in support of the proposition will ever be accepted as a reason.

IMHO, the prejudice is YOURS.  It is what keeps you from seeing a truth that is painfully obvious to every intelligent, reasonable and unprejudiced observer.
================================================================================
<< . . .  but it is a fiction that a lot of people beleive  so they die for it.>>

I think maybe what you're trying to say here is that the perception of the reason is more important than the actual reason.  I'd agree with that.  People live and die for their perceptions.  In this case the common perception happens to be the unadulterated truth.



[[[[[[[[[[[[ That is an article of unsupported faith , isn't it?]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

No, as a matter of fact, it is the ONLY logical conclusion that one can draw from the facts of the case.  IF one is not prejudiced.

[Plane]

"That the passage of a petrochemicals law is a benchmark along the road to U.S. withdrawal is no reason."


Have you thought about this?


There needs to be an energy policy in a country that is going to depend so much on Oil revenue, but what can we do to get it done ? It is their law and they are not our puppets.

[Michael Tee]

plane, the benchmark business is just one tiny little reason supporting all the other reasons why the U.S. invasion of Iraq is all about oil.  There IS no other reason.  But if you don't want to admit it, obviously I can't make you admit it.  You can keep on denying the obvious truth of it till the cows come home.  I'm not gonna repeat all those reasons over and over again.

[Plane]

plane, the benchmark business is just one tiny little reason supporting all the other reasons why the U.S. invasion of Iraq is all about oil.  There IS no other reason.  But if you don't want to admit it, obviously I can't make you admit it.  You can keep on denying the obvious truth of it till the cows come home.  I'm not gonna repeat all those reasons over and over again.

And you accuse me of the same thing I accuse you of , that you can't think about it.

The Iraquis mee and philibuster a very important law , struggleing to find a compromise that they can alllive with as if they had all the time in the world while we are getting tired and frustrated with them , we need them to settle and take controll butthey eem unwilling to give up dependance and act as if they have all the time in the world.

How does that demonstrate our controll of them? To me it shows just the opposite.

When Douglass McArther was in controll of Japan he had his staf write their Constitution and it was over in a week , I think (in hindsight) we might should have done it with firmer controll and had better result .

But for evidence tht we are gaining wealth from the project or that there ever was any expectation of such is lacking all evidence other than prejudice.

[_JS]

I gotta admit, you fight a great war on paper, Professor.

That's one of the best sentences I've read all day!

This "defeat Iran through air power" notion is interesting. What exactly does it achieve? I can see where it confirms every radical clerics statement about America. Every Iranian, especially civilians, that die in this aerial bombardment instantly becomes a martyr.

You thought that some of these Iranians had a long memory for what we did with SAVAK and the Shah, wait until you start blowing up their families. We haven't done a very good job with a two-bit radical Sunni sect that is still alive and well in Iraq and especially Afghanistan. Why are we looking to piss off the Shi'a world?

[Michael Tee]

I don't think you get it, plane.  The Iraqis already had a hydrocarbons law which worked very well for them.  The state owned the oil and took all the revenues when it was sold.  The results paid for the Iraqis' education, medical care, subsidized their food costs and generally gave them one of the highest standards of living in the Middle East.

The problem here is that they can't go back to it.  The Americans gave them a Constitution that does not allow socialism in the form or state ownership of the means of production (oil wells) or of much else and also permits the oil industry to be opened to foreign exploiters.  The question now is how big a piece of the pie the foreigners will be allowed to have.    It's a win-win situation for the Americans (because under the old system their share would have been zero) but still they don't trust the Iraqis to make the decision after they've left.

Right now I don't owe you a cent,  plane.  But if you sent a bunch of thugs to occupy my home and then told me they'd only leave when I decided how much I was going to pay you every month, I'd say it was a pretty clear indication of why you'd occupied my home in the first place.  Even if your original excuse had been that you were only looking for weapons that I'd hidden in my attic. 

[Cynthia]

Why do you hide behind the "google" curtain, MT? Is this your way of saying that you don't have the strength or guts to support your outrageous statements?
Nope....Not good enough MT.
I challenge you to support your accusations right here on the board in your own words or someone elses words, if you must......but  don't make me do your dirty work, please.



Cynthia

[Michael Tee]

I only "hide behind the Google curtain" when I feel the facts are so well known and obvious that I'm very surprised the person who I am conversing with doesn't know them already.  However, I can see that I probably made a mistake in this instance because the facts which were front-paged on the Toronto Star many times, were apparently of interest only to Canadians and must have been virtually ignored elsewhere.  My apologies.

Zahra Kazemi was a Canadian journalist who was arrested in Teheran and tortured to death - -while I was just googling for the name of the prison, Erbin? Ervin? - - I came across this article on the torture and murder of Bahai women in Iran, which is equally barbarous and disgusting:  http://www.geocities.com/richard.clark32@btinternet.com/iranfem.html

But back to Zahra Kazemi - - I just described earlier in this thread for plane's benefit the tortures that had been inflicted on her.  For which NOBODY in Iran has been punished. 

Sorry if I was "hiding behind a google curtain," Cynthia. 

However you asked for facts to support my allegation that the Iranians were torturers and murderers just as bad if not worse than the U.S. army and security apparatus, and I think now I've given you plenty:  the Canadian journalist Zahra Kazemi and the Bahai women, to which I gave you the direct link.

Now YOU can't hide behind a curtain of self-imposed ignorance any longer - - you have the facts you asked for.

[Plane]

I don't think you get it, plane.  The Iraqis already had a hydrocarbons law which worked very well for them.  The state owned the oil and took all the revenues when it was sold.  The results paid for the Iraqis' education, medical care, subsidized their food costs and generally gave them one of the highest standards of living in the Middle East.

The problem here is that they can't go back to it.  The Americans gave them a Constitution that does not allow socialism in the form or state ownership of the means of production (oil wells) or of much else and

Error in fact, I didn't bother to read further , this error is just too gross for the rest to make up for it no matter how well phrased.

[Plane]

But back to Zahra Kazemi - - I just described earlier in this thread for plane's benefit the tortures that had been inflicted on her.  For which NOBODY in Iran has been punished. 

 

However you asked for facts to support my allegation that the Iranians were torturers and murderers just as bad if not worse than the U.S. army and security apparatus, and I think now I've given you plenty:  the Canadian journalist Zahra Kazemi and the Bahai women, to which I gave you the direct link.

I think that if this had happened with Americans there could have been an investigation and a trial and even possibly a conviction. I don't see the equivilence you are pointing at.