Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look

[Universe Prince]

Some advocate making it easier to obtain. Others advocate making it more rare.

Any examples? Who is advocating making citizenship easier to obtain? I'm guessing, just guessing mind you, that you mean me. And yet, I have not once said citizenship should be made easier to obtain. So either you mean someone else, or you're trying "the old misstate my arguments and then attack them technique of discussion." So which is it?

So let's kill two birds with one stone. Any illegals caught in the US wil automatically be inducted into the armed services and after 1 year training and two years active duty will be granted citizenship.

That lower the barrier enough for you?

I see no point in answering since I was not advocating making easier the attainment of citizenship. You seem to have changed discussions. Somehow you moved from immigration to citizenship. I suggest we would be better served by not conflating the two.

[Plane]

Lets define "commodity?".

The time of my life is a commodity that I rent to my employer , so what isn't a commodity?

Is it your assertion then that citizenship something bought and sold for gain?

It can be , Roman citizenship was purchaseable outright even by people who never went there.

Our Citizenship seems to be easyer for the well heeled to get , even if it can't presently be purchased outright.

If a Government were to grant citizenship at auction , would this be wrong?

[Universe Prince]

If a Government were to grant citizenship at auction , would this be wrong?

Perhaps. Just out of curiosity, who is doing all this buying and selling U.S. citizenships? And what are they getting for it?

[The_Professor]

The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military.

As I recall, it was service to the state, not only military service.

I stand corrected; you are indeed correct.

Is it granted then that citizenship is the States, to define and  to grant?

Depends. Are you referring to the wish to be a "citizen of the United States" or a "citizen of Georgia"?

[kimba1]

Heinlien
pretty good writer
very unfavorable toward pacifist
thinking pacifist are useless rich people refusing to see reality
forgot the name of that book
about a slave who got freed and live in a world that does not acknoeledge slavery exist
that kinda exist now also .

[The_Professor]

Hmmm, don't remember that one. But, in Starship Troopers he advanced the concept that citizenship could not be obtained without service to the State. A friend of mine, Jerry Pournelle, who knew Heinlein quite well, said that Heinlein was very supportive of that concept (it was not just a concept he introduced into his book(s)).

[Lanya]

Professor, you don't happen to also know Larry Niven, do you?  I really liked their book " A Mote in God's Eye."  20+ years ago now, it must be.

[The_Professor]

No, I don't. He and Jerry have collaborated on many books. Thier latest is a sequel to their popular Inferno book and is aptly titled Inferno II (but the name may chnage). Jerry is also producing the next book in his Janissaries series, Mamelukes. Niven lately has produced a lot of short stories. see www.larryniven.org.

[Plane]

The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military.

As I recall, it was service to the state, not only military service.

I stand corrected; you are indeed correct.

Is it granted then that citizenship is the States, to define and  to grant?

Depends. Are you referring to the wish to be a "citizen of the United States" or a "citizen of Georgia"?

Hmmmmmmmm.... You could answer either way and make it interesting.

[The_Professor]

The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military.

As I recall, it was service to the state, not only military service.

I stand corrected; you are indeed correct.

Is it granted then that citizenship is the States, to define and  to grant?

Depends. Are you referring to the wish to be a "citizen of the United States" or a "citizen of Georgia"?

Hmmmmmmmm.... You could answer either way and make it interesting.

A declarative not an interrogative. You are impriving, Padwan Learner.

[Plane]

Heinlien
pretty good writer
very unfavorable toward pacifist
thinking pacifist are useless rich people refusing to see reality
forgot the name of that book
about a slave who got freed and live in a world that does not acknoeledge slavery exist
that kinda exist now also .

Citizen of the Galaxy is another example of RAH utilizing a classic narrative tradition and shaping it into something uniquely his own. The tale begins at a slave auction on the distant planet of Jubbul. Thorby is of indeterminate age and ancestry and his presence on the auction block brings only howls of derision from the usual buyers. The only one who offers a bid is Baslim, a one-eyed, one-legged beggar. His intention is to succor the boy and protect him until he is able to fend for himself, then he will be freed. There is nothing more despised in Baslim's mind than the institution of slavery.

http://www.templetongate.com/rahjuvie.htm


I musthave been 14 when I read that one , it is a good one .

[Plane]

If a Government were to grant citizenship at auction , would this be wrong?

Perhaps. Just out of curiosity, who is doing all this buying and selling U.S. citizenships? And what are they getting for it?

It wouldn't be right to say that the Citizenship was for sale , but the process we use makes it a lot easyer for someone who can prove his ability to pay taxes , so the result is simular.

[Universe Prince]

It wouldn't be right to say that the Citizenship was for sale , but the process we use makes it a lot easyer for someone who can prove his ability to pay taxes , so the result is simular.

So, all this talk about buying and selling citizenship was not true? Okay.

[BT]

There is a huge market for forged documents that would give you all the necessary documentation needed to exercise citizenship rights without actual citizenship. Birth certificates, social security cards, drivers licenses etc.

 

[_JS]

As a sidenote to the discussion, I never really grokked Heinlen's popularity. I tend to think he was vastly overrated. But that's just my opinion.

Apologies for the interruption.