What the West Needs to Know About Islam

[The_Professor]

<<Anyone who isn't a drooling liberal zombie knows what Islam says about those of us who aren't down with Muhammad. >>

I'M a drooling liberal zombie.  Are they gonna burn in the same hell as those of us who aren't down wid Jesus?

Yes. Read the Quran. Even the Mormons let us have a "lower Heaven". :-)

[The_Professor]

Anyone who isn't a drooling liberal zombie knows what Islam says about those of us who aren't down with Muhammad. But once again, we're treated to the template. It's almost funny if it weren't so twisted.

I think the point here is that they're not going to knock on your door to give you pamphlets.

No, they'll just kill you if you don't subscribe to thier religion. Hmmm, I wonder which is more devastating?

[The_Professor]

What is missing is the discussions on why Christianity is seemingly the only religion that seems preoccupied with proselytization.

When is the last time a Buddhist or a Hindu knocked on your door?

On the global scale, we have the phenomenon of missionaries, trotting about trying to convert everybody to Christianity.

The Jesuits represented the Catholic Church, but it must be remember that the church more or less was the state.  Therefore, they were agents, the initial agents, of imperialism.  Currently, the Mormons, who have probably the largest army of religion replacement contingents, and the ever vibrant evangelicals, have virtual armies of missionaires sent in to save the peoples in their native lands.

Send in the collars to shame the people and their ways, encourage them to give up their pagan idolatries, and get some junk food emporiums on every corner.

Yep, pure salvation, no matter how you put it. 

Your hatred of Christianity shows throguh, Crane. Christianity has also brought positives to the world as well. You cannot really judge the whole by the few.

[The_Professor]

Obviously the Christians feel the same impulse to insert their religious beliefs into your government, hence the partial ban on stem-cell research, the insertion of the words "under God" into what was previously a purely secular pledge, the push for a Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage and deprive gays of the same rights that all other citizens enjoy, the continuing push to ban women's free choice on abortion and the severe distortions of sex ed programs in high schools across the country.

Anyone who thinks it's only the Muslim religion that wants to get its hands on the levers of power is seriously blind to the realities of everyday life.  I'd say your chances of living under a Muslim theocracy are zero but your chances of living under a Christian theocracy have already been partially realized and will grow stedily over the next few years thanks to Bush, his "base" and their Supreme Court.

Ok, so you agree that living under Islam, if you are not Moselm, is zero. This is positive. You also admit, implicitly, that living under Chrisitanity, though not what you really desire, is possible. This is good news.

[The_Professor]

>>I think the point here is that they're not going to knock on your door to give you pamphlets.<<

What's your point?

Errr... let's recap.

Crane said: What is missing is the discussions on why Christianity is seemingly the only religion that seems preoccupied with proselytization. When is the last time a Buddhist or a Hindu knocked on your door?

Rich said in response Crane: Anyone who isn't a drooling liberal zombie knows what Islam says about those of us who aren't down with Muhammad. But once again, we're treated to the template. It's almost funny if it weren't so twisted.

Henny said in response to Rich: I think the point here is that they're not going to knock on your door to give you pamphlets.

The discussion had turned to proselytization. It appeared that you were commenting in that discussion. If I read that wrong, then what's YOUR point?

Well, I welcome one and all. When they come, I let them come in and DISCUSS it with them. It is fascinating! (The Jehovah Witnesses apparently have me on a list to not visit as they have "lost "some of their flock to REAL Christianity this way)..lol

[The_Professor]

Domer provides the proper historical context to Islam in the modern world.

This is not the 7th or 8th century. Mainstream Islam of all varieties has comprehended this, just as most mainstream Christianity has. It is only a radical fringe that does not and even they must be viewed as a product of their own times.

One has to be careful when reading the Koran, just as reading the Bible (or any religious text) as the vast majority of adherents do not accept everything literally as it is written. There is an amount of interpretation that goes into any text.

A post I certainly expected from you, JS. A crock, of course, but, in its own template, well-reasoned.

[The_Professor]

why Christianity is seemingly the only religion that seems preoccupied with proselytization. When is the last time a Buddhist or a Hindu knocked on your door?

i wonder if it is because buddhist/hindus make up such a tiny fraction of the us population?
but i have heard there is islamic proselytization in many us jails/prisons
and i wonder if christianity "knocks on your door" because christianity is many times in more tolerant religious cultures/countries?
christianity "knocks at your door" because it is "in a competitive maket place" if you will and because it is allowed to.
many times the other religions are in countries less tolerant of other religions.
i would not get upset if a buddist/hindu/muslim "knocked on my door", in fact it would be informative/educational
but in saudi, iran, and other less religious tolerant countries that might get you killed or jailed if you knocked on someone's door

Good point .There is not a level playing field. It is as if Muslims sense they will "lose" on this spirtual battlefield if they even allow discussion of other religions. Deos this make Islam a religion of fear?

[The_Professor]

No, I think looking at reality is of the utmost importance!

Calling for a war against Islam is not realistic.

Talking about radical Islam as a threat against the entire world is exaggerating reality.

In reality international terrorism is not on some dramatic large scale increase. It just isn't (look at the State Department's numbers for yourself). There is a massive amount of sectarian violence in Iraq, but wasn't that expected after the invasion?

I seem to remember that many Jews in the early stages of WWII said idientifcal things about "rumors of cleansing". They found, as we might, that sticking your head in the sand is NOT an an effective tactic. This pacificism I continually sense in your posts, JS, do not serve you or anyone well. PAcificsm can lead to its own path to death and destruction and then you are left with "Gee, I never dreamed it would be like this!"

I respectfully disagree with this approach. Think: the Allies placating Hitler before WWII, as an example, of executing a policy of too much pacificism can lead to worse ultimate results.

[yellow_crane]

What is missing is the discussions on why Christianity is seemingly the only religion that seems preoccupied with proselytization.

When is the last time a Buddhist or a Hindu knocked on your door?

On the global scale, we have the phenomenon of missionaries, trotting about trying to convert everybody to Christianity.

The Jesuits represented the Catholic Church, but it must be remember that the church more or less was the state.  Therefore, they were agents, the initial agents, of imperialism.  Currently, the Mormons, who have probably the largest army of religion replacement contingents, and the ever vibrant evangelicals, have virtual armies of missionaires sent in to save the peoples in their native lands.

Send in the collars to shame the people and their ways, encourage them to give up their pagan idolatries, and get some junk food emporiums on every corner.

Yep, pure salvation, no matter how you put it. 

Your hatred of Christianity shows throguh, Crane. Christianity has also brought positives to the world as well. You cannot really judge the whole by the few.

Spare me the word "hate."

Everybody not wearing a hood is aware of how often today's version of radical Christians use the word "hate" reflexsively whenever they encounter the least criticism.  According to your lights, one either embraces fully your religious creed or is guilty of hating it.  One hears it from you, Rich, and and of the assorted, livid eyed, yadda yadda tv Christian mega generals.

This inappropriate thinking stems from the base structure of your belief system--one of totality, extremism, total inflexibility. 

That part I do hate--it insults my intellect, as indeed does every other totalitarian-oriented, either/or philosophy which presents itself to me. 

Instead of your emotional defensiveness, you might address the notion of 'proselytizing,' which was the point.

I'll start again.  Why do you think that, because certain Christians proselytize while almost all other religions do not, and while cults do, the whole business should not own up to a certain degree of cultism exactly because of the result of this singular comparison?

As I have a thousand times on this and other boards, I remind all that when I refer to such Christians, I do not refer to ALL Christians in America.  That is another assumption that you and your radical ilk are guilty of--disagreeing with any single fact of any of the general Christian creed means that one hates the entire religion.

[Plane]

I'll start again.  Why do you think that, because certain Christians proselytize while almost all other religions do not, and while cults do, the whole business should not own up to a certain degree of cultism exactly because of the result of this singular comparison?
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This is a false premise.

Most of the big ones do proselytize , that is how they get big.

Yes I have had Buddists come to my door , it was a very rare experience and it was a long time ago.

Most Christians are aware of their duty to witness but are content to stand ready and witness on ocasions that strike them as appropriate , this isn't easy to do, but it is a lot easyer than being a missionary.

Of course we almost all contribute to missions , but "missions" is a concept , one of my favoriate missions is a local one , one of our churches posts a sign that women should bring their car in for an oil change , while the men of the church are under her car , the women of the church serve refreshments.

[Richpo64]

>>Really? Manchester was bombed in 1996. The Omagh bombing was 15 August 1998. I'm fairly sure that wasn't 600 years ago.<<

Why do you keep repeating this nonsense?

Again, Ireland's "troubles" aren't religious in nature. The Republic of Ireland isn't trying to convert Protestants To Catholicism by force. Do you understand the difference now?

[Henny]

Anyone who isn't a drooling liberal zombie knows what Islam says about those of us who aren't down with Muhammad. But once again, we're treated to the template. It's almost funny if it weren't so twisted.

I think the point here is that they're not going to knock on your door to give you pamphlets.

No, they'll just kill you if you don't subscribe to thier religion. Hmmm, I wonder which is more devastating?

Wow. I'm just amazed that I survived living in an Islamic country for a year. They must have missed me when they were searching out non-Muslims to kill.

[Michael Tee]

<<Wow. I'm just amazed that I survived living in an Islamic country for a year. They must have missed me when they were searching out non-Muslims to kill.>>

LOL.  We are very good friends with a couple a little older than we are, the husband is an Eastern European Jew and the wife is from a large Jewish Iranian family whose ancestors have lived in Iran for centuries.  "They" must have missed a lot of people for a very long period of time.

During the time our friend's family was living and growing in Iran, Jews in Spain and Portugal were either hiding from the Inquisition or burning at the stake, being burned alive in their homes during various European pogroms, or beaten to death by mobs, often rushing  straight out of church after listening to the usual Easter sermons about how the "perfidious Jews" killed their so-called "god," hiding all over Europe from the Germans or sucking down Zyklon B in a German gas chamber.  The Religion of Peace and the people who were raised up in it were really working overtime.

What is really surprising to me in all this anti-Muslim bigotry is not so much the pure ignorance of it, but how people raised in the Christian faith and supposedly all its teachings are apparently oblivious to one of the few things in it that make any sense at all, the admonition that you are keen to point out the mote in the other's eye while ignoring the log in your own.  That a Christian can point an accusatory finger at ANY other religion has always amazed me.  The sheer fucking gall of it!

[_JS]

>>Really? Manchester was bombed in 1996. The Omagh bombing was 15 August 1998. I'm fairly sure that wasn't 600 years ago.<<

Why do you keep repeating this nonsense?

Again, Ireland's "troubles" aren't religious in nature. The Republic of Ireland isn't trying to convert Protestants To Catholicism by force. Do you understand the difference now?

So then we can discount all the "terrorism" in Iraq, which is really just sectarian violence as it was in Northern Ireland.

Though I find it interesting that you believe that the attackers came from The Republic (they did not) and that The Troubles had nothing to do with religion. What do you think the bogside was about? What was the Civil Rights Movement in Northern Ireland for?

You might also note that Manchester isn't in Ireland or Northern Ireland and tell the people whose lives were shattered that they weren't victims of terrorism.

Now, does the Professor, Rich, Sirs, or Plane have the guts to answer my question?

How many people have died from international terrorism according to our very own State Department?

[The_Professor]

>>Really? Manchester was bombed in 1996. The Omagh bombing was 15 August 1998. I'm fairly sure that wasn't 600 years ago.<<

Why do you keep repeating this nonsense?

Again, Ireland's "troubles" aren't religious in nature. The Republic of Ireland isn't trying to convert Protestants To Catholicism by force. Do you understand the difference now?

Now, does the Professor, Rich, Sirs, or Plane have the guts to answer my question?

How many people have died from international terrorism according to our very own State Department?

If I understand your question, you are asking "How many people have died from international terrorism according to our very own State Department?"

If thisis the case, I am not really sure what you mean. Can you please clarify?