The Melting Pot

[The_Professor]

Your thoughts?

The United States was not built on the notion of diversity. It was build on the notion of e pluribus unum: from many we become one. You could study to become an American, and provided you did so, you would be accepted. There might be initiation rituals: "No Irish need apply"; but over time, as the Jewish police captain in Serpico says, "When I joined the force you had to have an uncircumcised shamrock between your legs to get promoted." Far from the objects of discrimination, Irish had become favored. The same happened with Italians. St. Patrick's Day Parades, Columbus Day Parades, Serbian Halls, recall those times when we celebrated our diverse origins -- but did so as part of Americana.

You could study to become an American, and over time we were becoming one. The Melting Pot worked. There was a long delay in allowing American Blacks to become part of that process, but even that was happening -- until we discovered diversity as a goal. Now the very idea of e pluribus unum is derided.

When I was a guest of Nokia in Finland a few years ago, I was introduced by the President to a Vice President: "He is a Swede who lives in Finland." It turns out that this man's family had lived in Finland for over a hundred years. At the time I thought that was odd. I suppose today it can happen here.

The United States was built on the notion of the Melting Pot: once you became an American, you were American first and your origin wasn't important. We didn't always live up to those ideals -- it took Truman and the Korean War to end segregation in the Armed Forces -- but it was the ideal. No more. We are not told to forget the Melting Pot and becoming American.

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/view/view479.html

[sirs]

Thoughts are simple (though will obviously referred to as bigoted by the ignorant).  The U.S is absolutely a melting pot, and as the title refers to, is one that allows peope to come to america and meld their culture into ours.  But this is still America, where people come to be Americans, and take part in the American way of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Which also translates into people needing to assimilate into being Americans, unless their plan/goal is simply to visit, then go back home.  In which case, we hope they had a pleasant stay & a safe trip home

Those that wish to stay and be apart of America, are encouraged to bring their unique cultures with them, share them with america if they wish.  But they do NOT demand that america bow to them and their culture.  They do not demand that we learn to speak their language.  They do not demand we provide them all forms of official paperwork in their own language.  They do not demand that we open our borders to any and all who wish to come here

And historically, most immigrants made no such demands.  Historically, most immigrants came here to be Americans, while remaining intimately connected with their particular culture & heritage.  Alas, the PC crud would seem to have convinced many of the newer immigrants that they should be able to make such demands     

[Richpo64]

The melting pot days are done. The dream is over.

[kimba1]

all I ask is nobody mess with my chances to get a job or progress.
none of that glass ceiling nonsense.

[Universe Prince]

I disagree strongly. What Mr. Pournelle seems to be advocating is not a Melting Pot, but a Smelting Pot, where all becomes uniform and that which is not American is discarded. That is not what America was or is. He says, "You could study to become an American, and provided you did so, you would be accepted." No, this is inaccurate. All the complaints that exist now about immigrants not assimilating into the culture, not speaking English, forming their own communities, these are complaints that have existed against immigrants for at least a hundred years if not two. That's one reason why many big cities have a "Chinatown" and/or a "Little Italy", places like that.

And no, E Pluribus Unum does not mean "from many we become one." It means "out of many, one." A more modern translation, as best as my research can discover, might be "many uniting as one." In other words, many come together as one, not that many become one. One strength America has had has been the diversity of its people. And the notion of people sinking into a uniform culture is one I associate with totalitarianism, not with a free republic. So I cannot agree with Mr. Pournelle.

[BT]

Pournelle is referring to assimilation, not homogenization.

Much like a well cooked stew each ingredient adds its unique flavor to the mix.

I don't thing the melting pot idea is dead, but i do think it has fallen out of favor with a growing segment of America.

[Universe Prince]

Pournelle is referring to assimilation, not homogenization.

Then perhaps he has confused the two. He seems to think diversity and e pluribus unum are mutually exclusive. Seems to me that diversity is the many that unite as one. Diversity, after all is not division. Being different is not being divided. Much like a well cooked stew, each ingredient adds its unique flavor to the mix.

[BT]

Do you have a problem with assimilation? Does assimilation mean foregoing your roots?
I don't think so.

Is assimilation not the best course for american immigrants?
If so, why not?

[kimba1]

it depends on what  assimilation means
after 9-11 I hear folks say hindu` and muslims (anybody with a turbin)should assimilate
meaning never openly practice your culture.
but notice nobody ever gave example of european culture sacrificed to be american
don`t recalled st.patricks days or octoberfest being banned and those are definately unamerican.

[Universe Prince]

Do you have a problem with assimilation?

When it happens naturally or voluntarily, no. When people want to enforce it (not saying anyone advocated that), yes. When people complain about diversity, yeah, I do have a bit of a problem with assimilation then because it sounds like the ones complaining expect some sort of Borg assimilation to a uniformity, an homogenization, rather than merely something different added to the mix.

Does assimilation mean foregoing your roots?

Not completely. Or at least it shouldn't. But I do sometimes shake my head at those who talk about becoming an American without forsaking one's roots, as if someone can somehow lose nothing of his/her original culture while he/she assimilates into American culture. It's kinda like saying, I don't expect you to change, but you have to follow the new rules. By expecting people to assimilate of course you're expecting people to change. What is both mildly amusing and mildly annoying is when people complain about immigrants coming here and demanding things from government. Demanding things, actions, special favors, whatever, from government is by now an integral part of American society. Why should anyone be surprised and/or offended when immigrants follow the example we have set?

Is assimilation not the best course for american immigrants?
If so, why not?

Voluntary assimilation, yes. If people who do not speak English come here and do not learn English, then they suffer trying to get along without it. If enough people who speak some non-English language live in a particular area, then the area may end up adapting, say by means of businesses using bi-lingual signs. That's not a bad thing. That isn't a destruction of culture. That is an enrichment of culture. In the meantime, the children of those immigrants and the children of the area natives will get to learn about each other's language. How could that ever be destructive?

I don't advocate assimilation as such. I advocate adaptation. And to me, that is what the Melting Pot is about. People come here from other lands. They adapt. The people who lived here already adapt. And more people come from other places, and the whole process continues. Some individuals maybe more resistant to change than others, but that is life.

And as best I can determine, by the third generation, the decendants of the immigrants are, far more often than not, speaking English and quite assimilated into American culture (whatever that is). So I find all this complaining about immigrants not assimilating, complaining that has been going on for decades, to be short-sighted and needless.

Notice should also be paid to the fact that whatever American culture is, it is that because the immigrants who came here from other places made it so. So the idea that we're somehow losing something uniquely American as a result of immigrants coming here and not all acting the way we want, I think is bogus.

[BT]

So assimilation or adaptation in your book is not a bad thing as long as the long arm of the law is not involved. Am i stating your position correctly?

I'm not sure if it is still a requirement of citizenship but once upon a time rudimentary english skills were required. If the policy is still in effect do you have a problem with that?

[Universe Prince]

So assimilation or adaptation in your book is not a bad thing as long as the long arm of the law is not involved. Am i stating your position correctly?

Basically, yes.

I'm not sure if it is still a requirement of citizenship but once upon a time rudimentary english skills were required. If the policy is still in effect do you have a problem with that?

As a requirement for naturalization? No.

[BT]

Then correct me if iam wrong but your problem is not with assimilation and adaptation upto and ncluding learning English.

Your problem is with those who hide their dislike of furriners under some other more acceptable issue like immigration, balkanization or some other social theory

Am i still on target?


 

[Universe Prince]

I think you might be oversimplifying a bit, but basically, yes, that is correct. I don't recall having ever said I was against people assimilating into our culture. I tend to object to assertions that people who don't assimilate according to some arbitrary set of rules are somehow ungrateful immigrants. I also object to the idea that diversity is somehow contrary to the notion of a Melting Pot. The diversity is the Melting Pot.

[BT]

Please define your use of the term diversity.

Are you saying hyphenated status is more important that national status?

irish- american takes precedence over american?