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The_Professor

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Thoughts on socialized medicine
« on: August 17, 2007, 08:07:34 PM »
In thinking about socialized medicine, a couple of points merit thought:

First, the people who are most against it least need it. Usually they are columnists of the political right and the people who read them. Columnists without exception are of intelligence above the average, as are almost all of their readers. With few if any exceptions, they are well educated. Consequently they tend to be prosperous, savvy, and very likely to have good insurance.

They also have little or, more likely, no real contact with anyone who might need socialized medicine. For example in Washington, which I know well, the klaxons of left and right berate each other from the cocktail parties of Georgetown and Cap Hill, eat in posh restaurants, and vacation in the Greek Isles. They do not know the people of the truck stops and gas stations.

Second, opponents of socialized medicine seem to think that such a system would be subject to exploitation by grifters and scam artists. They are right. Note that the grifters would not be people receiving care, but Republican doctors who would pad their bills and otherwise skim off unwatched cream. We are all against corruption until it is our turn at the trough. Note also that a woman with a broken leg does not pretend to have two broken legs so as to get an extra cast.

It seems to me that the underlying question is not that of socialized medicine but rather: What is our attitude as a nation toward people who are not very smart? Who furthermore are culturally impoverished? Who are among the substantial fraction of Americans who can barely read?

They exist in large numbers. Half the white population have IQs below 100. The proportion among various non-white groups is much higher. Throw in legal aliens with fourth-grade educations and little command of English, and people in small towns where the idea of going to college is only slightly stranger than that of going to Mars.

Few of them are welfare cheats. Usually they have worked hard all their lives... They are just??stupid? is unkind but perhaps best conveys their condition, though some of the apparent stupidity is in fact ignorance. They can?t balance a checkbook, must less understand rollovers on a 401(k). They don?t understand what 18% interest on a credit card means, and can?t read, much less understand, a contract. (?The party of the first part, hereinafter?.?) They aren?t smart enough to be entrepreneurs. Very likely, they have never read a book in their lives.

Try to imagine never having read a book. You can?t do it.

Word-crafters of my acquaintance rail against Hillary for supporting socialized medicine. They seem to think that the beneficiaries of the program would be people like themselves, only shiftless. ?I studied and worked my way up and made something of myself, and I take care of myself. Why don?t these lazy bastards to the same?? Easy. Because these of my friends have IQs averaging in excess of 140, while the lazy bastards (who in fact are neither) check in at maybe 90.

I often hear it said that people should be able to invest as they think best the payments they make into Social Security. Of course what is really going on is an attempt by stock funds to get their hands on lots of other people?s money. Still, the argument is made that freedom and free enterprise demand that government not take, etc. ?It?s our money. Let us invest it.? This ignores the fact that over half the population is absolutely, irremediably, hermetically incapable of investing intelligently.

Now, what do we do with people who have obeyed all the fabled American rules, who have worked, perhaps at pathetic wages and no benefits, and never cheated, and been honest citizens, and then the bottling plant went to China and they?re old and have nothing? What?

We could be good social Darwinists and let them rot. They are not cutting edge people, not Verilog mechanics or optical engineers or hedge-fund managers. Who needs them? All right. If this is your position, say so. Look me in the eye and say, ?Screw?em. I don?t care what happens to them and I?m not going to spend a red cent on them.? Say this, and I will understand you.

An obstacle to thought here is that the people in the editorial suites and cocktail parties are twiddlers of abstractions. Waving a shrimp speared on a toothpick, holding a glass of vintage Sobriquet, they speak of second-order supply side multiplier effects of marginal increases in labor costs and what Burke and Adam Smith said. You?ve seen their websites: ?Rothman on Kleinfelter.? ?Kleinfelter on Fergweiler.? ?Fergweiler on Theftwunkel.? Intellectual sparring is their world.

It?s different to Mary Sal Wooten in a decaying trailer somewhere on 301 South, with her retinas peeling like wallpaper from diabetic retinopathy, ankles swollen and darkening toward gangrene, and the hospital won?t take her because it isn?t an emergency and she can?t afford her medicine. Really, truly no-shit can?t afford it.

What do we do with people like her? People who just flat can?t handle the complexity of today?s world? It seems to me that anyone who wants to think about socialized medicine has to answer that question before starting.

When I was a kid in King George Country, Virginia, the answer commonly was the federal government. Dahlgren Naval Proving Grounds was there. It hired a lot of the local country kids, rednecks as we now say, as gate guards, truck drivers, maintenance workers, and so on. These jobs legitimately needed doing, and those hired did them well. The jobs carried benefits and pensions. But the private sector won?t if it can avoid it.

What other solutions are available? Many say, ?It?s a job for private charity.? This is another way of saying, ?Screw?em, I ain?t paying a cent.? Yet others say cut taxes and the resulting economic boom will lift all boats. This is another way of saying, ?Screw?em, I ain?t paying a cent.?

But let?s at least have the dignity to say what we mean. The truth is that large numbers of people cannot take care of themselves beyond showing up at work every day and spinning lug nuts on the assembly line. They aren?t going to invest wisely from youth because they aren?t smart enough. Employers aren?t going to provide retirements unless forced to. Hospitals won?t take them if they can avoid it. Do we say, ?Screw?em, let?em croak?? Apparently. Then let?s say so plainly.

http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

kimba1

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2007, 09:16:34 PM »
since i did not go to school in this country except college
can anyone tell me is personal finance taught in this country?
I seem to have the impression nobody was taught that in school.

BT

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2007, 09:48:18 PM »
OK. So we can't look Fred in the eye and say screw them.

Now what?

Universe Prince

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2007, 10:02:46 PM »

What other solutions are available? Many say, ?It?s a job for private charity.? This is another way of saying, ?Screw?em, I ain?t paying a cent.? Yet others say cut taxes and the resulting economic boom will lift all boats. This is another way of saying, ?Screw?em, I ain?t paying a cent.?


That is not true. Suggesting private charity or reducing taxes is not another way of saying "Screw 'em." Perhaps some people mean it that way, but not everyone, and I'd be willing to say most do not, means it that way.

A case could be made, on the other hand, that suggesting government charity is another way of saying "I don't want to have to do anything about it." The folks most intent on using government as a charity organization are generally the ones also most intent on making sure "the wealthy", a term usually left vague, pay "their fair share", another usually vague term that tends to just mean "a lot more". In other words, make someone else pay for it. Some people find that attitude to be immoral and/or unethical. And think I can safely say most of those folks who suggest private charity actually do give money to private charities. And some of them even, believe it or not, willingly donate their time to helping private charities. So no, you should not equate suggesting private charity with "Screw 'em, I ain't paying a cent."

And to suggest that we help people afford extra expenses like medical costs by having the government take less of their money way is not another way of saying "Screw 'em." It is, in point of fact, a reasonable suggestion. It is not the whole solution certainly, but a it would be a step in the correct direction nonetheless.



Second, opponents of socialized medicine seem to think that such a system would be subject to exploitation by grifters and scam artists. They are right. Note that the grifters would not be people receiving care, but Republican doctors who would pad their bills and otherwise skim off unwatched cream. We are all against corruption until it is our turn at the trough. Note also that a woman with a broken leg does not pretend to have two broken legs so as to get an extra cast.


Just Republican doctors? I'm skeptical. I wonder what the political leaning is for most of the doctors who have started to refuse Medicare/Medicaid payments and started charging patients according to what they can afford to pay? And while a woman with a broken leg may not pretend to have two broken legs so as to get an extra cast, there are people who fake injuries to to get money. Ever seen those grocery store videos of people who sprinkle a little poultry blood on the floor and then "accidentally" slip in it so they can get the grocery store to hand over some money? No, it's not widespread, but it happens.


It seems to me that the underlying question is not that of socialized medicine but rather: What is our attitude as a nation toward people who are not very smart? Who furthermore are culturally impoverished? Who are among the substantial fraction of Americans who can barely read?


Indeed, what is our attitude? Is it, "we should help these people"? Or is it "the government should make someone else pay for helping these people"? The former suggests concern and a desire to help. The latter suggests a guilty conscience and reluctance to actually do anything about it. But part of the mistake here is expecting there to be a single national attitude or opinion on how best to address the issue, which usually leads to the conclusion that if there isn't one then we can some how legislate our way to one, and anyone who disagrees is just a greedy bastard who deserves to be made to pay. And somehow, that doesn't really seem like an open-minded attitude.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2007, 10:12:43 PM »
Though I don't know why Fred Reed cares. He lives in Mexico.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2007, 10:13:35 PM »
Quote
Indeed, what is our attitude? Is it, "we should help these people"? Or is it "the government should make someone else pay for helping these people"? The former suggests concern and a desire to help.

What is the easiest way to make sure everybody pays?


The_Professor

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2007, 10:32:35 PM »
Though I don't know why Fred Reed cares. He lives in Mexico.

Henny lived/lives in Jordan yet she cared/cares about discussing issues here, right?
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Henny

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2007, 11:00:30 PM »
Though I don't know why Fred Reed cares. He lives in Mexico.

Henny lived/lives in Jordan yet she cared/cares about discussing issues here, right?

I do care. Even about the topic of socialized medicine. So I guess I will give this topic a shot with what I've learned and experienced on said topic. And let me preface this by saying that I've spent the better part of my life being against the idea of socialized medicine, but have seen some things that I have caused me to change my mind to a degree.

What Jordan does, and other countries that have socialized - or more appropriately, semi-socialized - medicine is a mix of what we have now, only improved.

Jordan, and even Australia and other countries for that matter, offer free or discounted medical care for those who can't afford it, but most people still have medical insurance as well. I think there is an overwhelming consensus by Americans that if they accept any form of socialized medicine they will give up what good stuff they have now. Simply not true - if you're working and have medical coverage. People who can't afford anything go to public hospitals and clinics. Those with insurance can choose private institutions and higher standards of health care than they could otherwise. I think that some people might cry "not fair!" to this form of discrimination even within semi-socialized healthcare, but it seems at least somewhat more fair that what the uninsured have now.

Medical costs have spun out of control in the U.S. Even those of us with insurance have to pay higher and higher amounts, both right out of our paychecks and in the form of co-pays, etc. Many companies can no longer afford to insure their employees. Prescription costs are even worse.

Have any of you done a job search recently? I have. A 3-month job search where I even turned down a job because of the benefit package. In the end, I hired on with a company with fantastic benefits, but they were hard to find. Most companies were taking larger chunks out of paychecks than I had ever seen before - for worse coverage - and a couple of companies I interviewed with had even been forced to cancel their insurance coverage because they could no longer afford to pay those benefits for their employees.

I believe, at least from what I've seen with my own eyes, that instituting some form of socialized health care drives down the costs that we see spiraling out of control.

One personal example is that when I was leaving Jordan last April, my uninsured brother needed medication. In the U.S. this medication (for which there is no generic alternative) cost about $300 per month to purchase. In bought him a 6-month supply in Jordan in hopes of helping him over this rough patch. Guess how much I paid for the exact same medication, developed and manufactured by the same pharmaceutical company, in the identical packaging? $50 per month.

I suppose this argument is just a cluster of personal anecdotes, but they're not just my stories. If you look around you can see stories like this everywhere.

BT

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2007, 11:04:03 PM »
How does Jordan fund this entry level medical service?


Plane

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2007, 01:37:03 AM »
In thinking about socialized medicine, a couple of points merit thought:

First, the people who are most against it least need it. Usually they are columnists of the political right and the people who read them. Columnists without exception are of intelligence above the average, as are almost all of their readers. With few if any exceptions, they are well educated. Consequently they tend to be prosperous, savvy, and very likely to have good insurance.

They also have little or, more likely, no real contact with anyone who might need socialized medicine. For example in Washington, which I know well, the klaxons of left and right berate each other from the cocktail parties of Georgetown and Cap Hill, eat in posh restaurants, and vacation in the Greek Isles. They do not know the people of the truck stops and gas stations.


Is this guy also referencing himself?
Does he know the people of the truckstop?
Quote

Second, opponents of socialized medicine seem to think that such a system would be subject to exploitation by grifters and scam artists. They are right. Note that the grifters would not be people receiving care, but Republican doctors who would pad their bills and otherwise skim off unwatched cream. We are all against corruption until it is our turn at the trough. Note also that a woman with a broken leg does not pretend to have two broken legs so as to get an extra cast.

Republican Doctors?

Quote

It seems to me that the underlying question is not that of socialized medicine but rather: What is our attitude as a nation toward people who are not very smart? Who furthermore are culturally impoverished? Who are among the substantial fraction of Americans who can barely read?

They exist in large numbers.
Half the white population have IQs below 100.
This is an error of fact , less than ten percent of us have an IQ below 100
Quote

The proportion among various non-white groups is much higher. Throw in legal aliens with fourth-grade educations and little command of English, and people in small towns where the idea of going to college is only slightly stranger than that of going to Mars.

Few of them are welfare cheats. Usually they have worked hard all their lives... They are just??stupid? is unkind but perhaps best conveys their condition, though some of the apparent stupidity is in fact ignorance. They can?t balance a checkbook, must less understand rollovers on a 401(k). They don?t understand what 18% interest on a credit card means, and can?t read, much less understand, a contract. (?The party of the first part, hereinafter?.?) They aren?t smart enough to be entrepreneurs. Very likely, they have never read a book in their lives.

Try to imagine never having read a book. You can?t do it.

Word-crafters of my acquaintance rail against Hillary for supporting socialized medicine. They seem to think that the beneficiaries of the program would be people like themselves, only shiftless. ?I studied and worked my way up and made something of myself, and I take care of myself. Why don?t these lazy bastards to the same?? Easy. Because these of my friends have IQs averaging in excess of 140, while the lazy bastards (who in fact are neither) check in at maybe 90.

I often hear it said that people should be able to invest as they think best the payments they make into Social Security. Of course what is really going on is an attempt by stock funds to get their hands on lots of other people?s money. Still, the argument is made that freedom and free enterprise demand that government not take, etc. ?It?s our money. Let us invest it.? This ignores the fact that over half the population is absolutely, irremediably, hermetically incapable of investing intelligently.

Now, what do we do with people who have obeyed all the fabled American rules, who have worked, perhaps at pathetic wages and no benefits, and never cheated, and been honest citizens, and then the bottling plant went to China and they?re old and have nothing? What?

We could be good social Darwinists and let them rot. They are not cutting edge people, not Verilog mechanics or optical engineers or hedge-fund managers. Who needs them? All right. If this is your position, say so. Look me in the eye and say, ?Screw?em. I don?t care what happens to them and I?m not going to spend a red cent on them.? Say this, and I will understand you.

An obstacle to thought here is that the people in the editorial suites and cocktail parties are twiddlers of abstractions. Waving a shrimp speared on a toothpick, holding a glass of vintage Sobriquet, they speak of second-order supply side multiplier effects of marginal increases in labor costs and what Burke and Adam Smith said. You?ve seen their websites: ?Rothman on Kleinfelter.? ?Kleinfelter on Fergweiler.? ?Fergweiler on Theftwunkel.? Intellectual sparring is their world.

It?s different to Mary Sal Wooten in a decaying trailer somewhere on 301 South, with her retinas peeling like wallpaper from diabetic , ankles swollen and darkening toward gangrene, and the hospital won?t take her because it isn?t an emergency and she can?t afford her medicine. Really, truly no-shit can?t afford it.

What do we do with people like her? People who just flat can?t handle the complexity of today?s world? It seems to me that anyone who wants to think about socialized medicine has to answer that question before starting.

When I was a kid in King George Country, Virginia, the answer commonly was the federal government. Dahlgren Naval Proving Grounds was there. It hired a lot of the local country kids, rednecks as we now say, as gate guards, truck drivers, maintenance workers, and so on. These jobs legitimately needed doing, and those hired did them well. The jobs carried benefits and pensions. But the private sector won?t if it can avoid it.

What other solutions are available? Many say, ?It?s a job for private charity.? This is another way of saying, ?Screw?em, I ain?t paying a cent.? Yet others say cut taxes and the resulting economic boom will lift all boats. This is another way of saying, ?Screw?em, I ain?t paying a cent.?

But let?s at least have the dignity to say what we mean. The truth is that large numbers of people cannot take care of themselves beyond showing up at work every day and spinning lug nuts on the assembly line. They aren?t going to invest wisely from youth because they aren?t smart enough. Employers aren?t going to provide retirements unless forced to. Hospitals won?t take them if they can avoid it. Do we say, ?Screw?em, let?em croak?? Apparently. Then let?s say so plainly.

http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm




Fred seems to have very little respect for the people he feels so kindly twards.

Universe Prince

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2007, 01:41:33 AM »

Henny lived/lives in Jordan yet she cared/cares about discussing issues here, right?


Fair enough. And if Reed is still an American citizen, he still has to pay taxes. So I was wrong on this one. Oh well.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2007, 01:45:55 AM »

I believe, at least from what I've seen with my own eyes, that instituting some form of socialized health care drives down the costs that we see spiraling out of control.


Does it drive down the cost, or just the price people pay? The two are not always the same thing. From what I have read, some countries with some form of socialized medicine find funding the program to be increasingly expensive. So if all the program accomplishes is lowering the price people pay directly, then the problem hasn't really been solved.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2007, 01:48:22 AM »

I believe, at least from what I've seen with my own eyes, that instituting some form of socialized health care drives down the costs that we see spiraling out of control.


Does it drive down the cost, or just the price people pay? The two are not always the same thing. From what I have read, some countries with some form of socialized medicine find funding the program to be increasingly expensive. So if all the program accomplishes is lowering the price people pay directly, then the problem hasn't really been solved.


Organised and collective barganing can have an effect on cost.


Universe Prince

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2007, 01:57:38 AM »
I should add that something else I've read about happening in some countries with some form of socialized medicine is people needing treatment or a drug or an operation or some such and not getting timely permission from the government. I'm not saying delays don't happen here in the U.S. Of course they do. But generally there are other options available even if they can be extremely expensive. With socialized medicine, if the government health care system says wait, or declines to pay for a medicine, there is no other option unless one opts to leave the country for care, which has to be even more expensive. I'm not saying the U.S. system is perfect or even necessarily better. I'm just saying, there seem to be serious problems with single payer health care systems elsewhere that make them not seem more attractive to me than what we already have. Yes, the U.S. health care system needs a lot of improvement, but I'd hate to see us adopt a plan without considering the practical consequences, particularly considering that we have other countries to look to for examples.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Thoughts on socialized medicine
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2007, 01:59:59 AM »

Organised and collective barganing can have an effect on cost.


It can have an effect on price. But if the cost to the company remains the same, then we're not really solving the problem of expensive health care, and the price is going to have to go up eventually.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--