Author Topic: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?  (Read 17568 times)

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sirs

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So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« on: October 15, 2006, 04:33:04 AM »
How would unilateral talks with the U.S. be of any benefit?  Why is this not a UN lead issue?  Do we (the U.S.) take the military option off the table completely?...why yes or no?  And can we please minimise the Bush bashing in your answers?

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

The_Professor

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2006, 01:07:04 PM »
It is not clear to me that discussions with him would be of any vlaue. He is obviously a sociopath. He will be, hopefully, dealt with in time. Why? One trait nations tend to almsot demand in other nations is predictability. Even the Chinese will get tired of this and deal with him. They are his largest trading partner, by far ,and so are the only ones who can apply any real pressure.

I can only assume the reasones we have not already bombed his nuclear facilities are (and I am sure there are others):

1. UP would say we are being too interventionist.
2. JS would say we are too aggressive
3. the South Koreans and Japanses are scared of the possible repurcussions
4. the Chinese like their capitalist/communist country chugging, economically, right along and so do not watn the status quo changed
5. it might work and so Brass, Doemr and Mucho would therefore be embarrassed and shocked that something Bush did really worked
6. I haven't given the official "GH" order.

:-)

Michael Tee

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2006, 01:13:35 PM »
The obvious answer is talk to the guy - - he wants to talk to you and you have nothing to lose by talking.  If you can't get to a deal with him, at least you tried.  Nothing lost.  If later on down the road you have to try to get international support for stronger measures, it'll be more convincing to argue that you even tried bilateral talks at his request.  

It's the height of absurdity to claim that you know the outcome of the talks before they start.  At the very least, you'll gain some insight into how he functions in a one-on-one with the Great Satan, which could come in handy in the future.

Michael Tee

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2006, 01:47:35 PM »
The other question that has to be asked is whether the Bush administration, in light of its refusal to enter bilateral talks with North Korea, really wants a peaceful resolution of the problem. 

The reason for North Korea's desire for bilateral talks seems pretty clear - - it's a question of prestige.  The U.S. has disrespected the country and its leader by refusing to talk with it directly and they naturally resent the insult and would like to wipe it away.  The reason for the Bush administration's refusal to accede to such a seemingly simple request is not so clear - - possibly stubborness, a refusal to back down from a position previously taken, no matter how stupid and short-sighted it was; but if the issue is as crucial and potentially deadly as the Bush administration claims it to be, it's hard to see how stubborness and vanity could possibly enter into the equation.  So you have to ask if the U.S. is really interested in resolving the issue at this point in time.  Entering bilateral talks has one potentially HUGE disadvantage from America's POV - - what if the North Koreans unexpectedly agree to a number of American demands and still can't get a deal?  America looks like the bad guy and its hypocrisy (once again) is exposed to the world.  (This actually happened during the negotiations between England, France and the U.S.S.R. in 1936 - 39, when the U.S.S.R. suddenly and unexpectedly agreed to a number of "impossible" conditions requested by England and France and were still unable to obtain the mutual defence treaty they had tried to obtain against Germany - - the British and French negotiators had been secretly instructed by their governments not to sign with Russia under any circumstances, and the "deal-breaker" conditions had been posed merely to give cover to the predetermined breakdown of the negotiations.)  IF the US doesn't really want a deal with North Korea at this time, and if they don't want to be exposed as the party which is really responsible for the lack of a deal, they would obviously want to avoid a one-on-one scenario where responsibility for the break-down of the negotiations could not be obscured by spreading it around amongst six participants.

Why would the US want to leave North Korea with nuclear weapons?  IMHO because the Koreans would never be dumb enough to use them against the U.S.A. and probably not even against their own countrymen in the South.  But the North's "victory" against the U.S. could embolden it to step up its military adventurism against the South, leading to armed clashes and loss of life along the DMZ or even further south due to the infiltration of seaborne commando forces.  This would give the U.S. a great rationale for the prevention of similar developments in the Middle East and strengthen their case for the "necessity" of invading Iran.  IMHO, the primary motive force behind U.S. foreign policy at present is oil - - they want to get those big oil fields under their control against the day when there just won't be enough for everyone, specifically for India, China and the U.S.A., when somebody with ready money in his hand is still gonna be left at the docks waiting for his tanker to be filled next month after the other guys' tankers have already sailed.  They (the U.S.) just don't want that guy to be them.

BT

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2006, 01:49:26 PM »
Mikey,

Is this just a US - NoKo issue in your mind or is it a regional or international issue?

If if is a regional or international issue, shouldn't the other interested parties be sitting at the table, as has been taking place?



domer

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2006, 02:20:57 PM »
The obvious answer is a hybrid set of negotiations: either establish two-party US-NK talks under the general umbrella of the six-party talks, or establish them "independently" with a clearly-articulated reporting mechanism. I would not end the multilateral talks. By the same token, I would not deny NK what seems to be its aim (in this regard only): straight one-on-one talks with the US. The important thing in any bilateral talks would be the "context" they were convened among. In no way whatsoever should NK's psychotic blinders allow them to filter out (and magnify on us) the real-world context in which its behavior plays out.

BT

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2006, 03:30:47 PM »
I have no problem with rewarding NoKO with two party talks with the US if they show good faith and good actions with the present framework. I don't  believe they have to this point, and I certainly don't believe they should be rewarded for not doing so.


Mucho

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2006, 03:35:41 PM »
The very few mouthbreathers that still support Bush will maintain their state of denial about the following truth by calling it a bushbash, but it is clearly the case and any effort to handle NK will be required to have Bush either gone from office or largely emasculated.


http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-cirincione15oct15,0,5531686.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail
Bush Unleashes the Nuclear Beast
If the administration won't abide by time-tested nuclear treaties, why should anyone else?
By Joseph Cirincione
Joseph Cirincione is a senior vice president at the Center for American Progress. His new book, "Bomb Scare: The History and Future of Nuclear Weapons," will be published next spring.

October 15, 2006

IN THEIR THIRD PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE, in October 1960, John F. Kennedy went after Vice President Richard Nixon, blasting him as weak on national security for not stopping the spread of nuclear weapons. France had just tested its first nuclear device, joining the United States, the Soviet Union and Britain as the world's first nuclear powers. Kennedy warned "that 10, 15 or 20 nations will have a nuclear capacity — including Red China — by the end of the presidential office in 1964."

As president, Kennedy sought to fight that dark vision, telling the United Nations: "The weapons of war must be abolished, before they abolish us." He restarted talks on a comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty, began pursuit of a global nonproliferation pact and signed a treaty with the Soviet Union to ban atmospheric nuclear tests. Although Kennedy did not live to finish the job, in 1968, Lyndon Johnson signed what became the diplomatic crown jewel of his presidency: the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, or NPT. President Nixon secured its ratification.

The NPT is now considered one of the most successful security pacts in history. Every nation in the world is a member except Israel, India, Pakistan, and North Korea. Most of the 183 member states that do not have nuclear weapons believe what the treaty says: We should eliminate nuclear weapons.

The treaty became the hub around which liberals and conservatives built an interlocking network of agreements that deterred, though didn't altogether stop, the spread of nuclear weapons. As a result, by 2000, only three other countries — Israel, India and Pakistan — had joined the original five nuclear nations. With the success of these agreements, and the end of the Soviet-American nuclear standoff at the close of the Cold War, it seemed that the nuclear threat that had haunted the world for so many years might finally be receding.

But now, suddenly, the threat is back. In the last six years, we seem awash in nuclear threats: First it was Saddam Hussein, then North Korea and Iran. How did it happen? Is nuclear restraint dead?

At the heart of the problem is the strategy George W. Bush chose, which rejects international treaties as the solution to proliferation. He and his advisors saw these agreements as limiting U.S. flexibility and viewed the United Nations and other global gatherings as arenas where the world's Lilliputians could tie down the American Gulliver.

Bush scuttled the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, walked away from the nuclear test ban treaty secured by President Clinton, opposed efforts to enforce the treaty banning biological weapons, mocked the U.N. inspectors before the Iraq war and sent low-level officials to critical negotiations, including last year's NPT conference. The world now believes that the chief architect of the global nonproliferation system has abandoned its creation.

Instead, the administration preferred to rely on U.S. military might and technology, such as anti-missile systems, to protect the United States. Rather than negotiate treaties to eliminate weapons, it forged a strategy to eliminate the regimes that might use them against us. The Bush team felt they knew who the bad guys were, and they aimed to get them — one by one.

But the strategy has backfired. Both Iran and North Korea accelerated their programs, making more progress in the last five years than they had made in the previous 10. Now North Korea's test threatens to trigger an Asian nuclear-reaction chain that could prompt South Korea, Taiwan and even Japan to reconsider their nuclear options.

And it is not just the threats from small nations such as North Korea that could fuel a new atomic arms race. It is the continued existence of huge nuclear arsenals in the United States, Russia and other states. The importance of nuclear weapons as a cornerstone of U.S. defense had been declining since the Cold War ended. Though the U.S. never ruled out their use, Clinton and George H.W. Bush made it clear that they believed they were unusable, except perhaps in retaliation.

But the current president's policies have elevated the role of these weapons. The 2002 Nuclear Posture Review detailed plans to build new, more usable "low-yield" nuclear weapons and created missions for them. Bush decided to retain about 6,000 weapons and to research a new generation of nuclear missiles, bombers and submarines.

What's the relevance of this to proliferation? Simple. U.S. intelligence officials concluded as early as 1958 that other nations' nuclear appetites could not be curbed without limiting the superpowers' stockpiles. That judgment was confirmed by subsequent administrations.

As the superpowers cut their weapons from a Cold War high of 65,000 in 1986 to about 27,000 today, other countries took note. In the 1960s, 23 countries had nuclear programs, including Australia, Canada, Egypt, Japan, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and West Germany. Most ended any weapons programs. Brazil and Argentina stopped research in the 1980s, and South Africa, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine gave up their bombs in the 1990s.

We now know that U.N. inspectors ended Iraq's nuclear program in 1991. In 2003, Libya abandoned its secret program. Until last week, no nation had tested a nuclear weapon for eight years — the longest period in the Atomic Age. The outrage that greeted the North Korean test shows how strong anti-nuclear sentiment has become.

Many political and military leaders recognize the limited military utility of weapons whose use would kill thousands of innocent civilians. Rep. David L. Hobson (R-Ohio), a solid Midwest conservative, led the effort last year to kill the administration's proposed "nuclear bunker buster," a new weapon designed to go after conventional targets. Former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara advocates greatly reducing the U.S. and Russian arsenals and then working to eliminate them completely, just as countries have done with chemical and biological weapons. Even former Bush advisor Richard Perle has said the U.S. could cut to well below 1,000 warheads. "The truth is we are never going to use them," Perle said. "The Russians aren't going to use theirs either."

By clinging to our own nuclear arsenal, and touting the importance of these weapons to our own security, the Bush administration has sent the world a schizoid message: Nuclear weapons are very, very important and useful — but you cannot have them. This double standard is impossible to maintain.

Last year, International Atomic Energy Agency Director Mohamed ElBaradei said that until the world was committed to eradicating nuclear weapons, "we will continue to have this cynical environment that all the guys in the minor leagues will try to join the major leagues…. They will say, 'If the big boys continue to rely on nuclear weapons, why shouldn't I?' "

Bush administration officials have proved expert at smashing the agreements their predecessors so painstakingly built, but in doing so they broke the bars that had caged the nuclear beast. Those who will have to repair the damage would do well to look back at the handiwork of the past. They might learn a thing or two.



sirs

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2006, 03:38:36 PM »
I have no problem with rewarding NoKO with two party talks with the US if they show good faith and good actions with the present framework. I don't  believe they have to this point, and I certainly don't believe they should be rewarded for not doing so.

Agreed.  The worst thing we can do is to reward completely & globally deemed unacceptable behavior.  And might I add, I'm impressed with the suggestions to this point, minus the standard knute garbage of course
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

domer

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2006, 03:44:33 PM »
I wouldn't tie the advent of two-party talks to any concessions, save one: NK's pledge of (verifiable) good faith in both those talks and the multilateral talks, as the parties their decide. I don't think the matter should devolve to a situation of one-upmanship. The important thing is to get the right framework set up ... and working, along with sanctions, which can be used as bargaining chips when appropriate.

Plane

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2006, 05:05:08 PM »
Quote
MT   It's the height of absurdity to claim that you know the outcome of the talks before they start.  At the very least, you'll gain some insight into how he functions in a one-on-one with the Great Satan, which could come in handy in the future.


I wouldn't tie the advent of two-party talks to any concessions, save one: NK's pledge of (verifiable) good faith in both those talks and the multilateral talks, as the parties their decide. I don't think the matter should devolve to a situation of one-upmanship. The important thing is to get the right framework set up ... and working, along with sanctions, which can be used as bargaining chips when appropriate.


We do know how talks have worked in the past , includeing one one one talks useing a former President as an envoy, the North Koreans have no good faith .

Universe Prince

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2006, 09:56:38 PM »

1. UP would say we are being too interventionist.


I'd appreciate you not talking for me. Thank you.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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The_Professor

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2006, 10:08:09 PM »
 ::)

Michael Tee

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2006, 01:31:08 AM »
Just back from hiking, dinner and a pretty good movie ("The Departed" - - Martin Scorsese)

BT, it's a regional AND a US problem, but if the North Koreans at this point insist on talking to the US one-on-one there's no reason why(a) the US can't raise regional issues in the talks, make some of the proposed solutions conditional upon regional acceptance or (b) why the other regional parties can't - - with or without the US also present, at least with observer status - - conduct simultaneous talks with the North Koreans.  Nothing else is working out, and this (bilateral talks) seems like the only door open at this time.

Plane, the North Koreans may not have abided by the results of their prior talks, but - - that was then, this is now.  I think there's a big difference between negotiating with an armed man when you yourself are unarmed and desperately in need of time to arm yourself, and dealing with that same armed man when you've finally managed to acquire a weapon yourself.  The North Korea that signed onto non-proliferation when it had no nukes is not the same North Korea that now has a few nukes.  They may not be sincere in their desire for a one-on-one but there is very little to lose by giving in and talking and much to be gained if a deal can be reached.

Knute posted an article suggesting that the US has walked away from negotiated solutions to the nuclear proliferation problem and has therefore lost credibility as a negotiating partner, but that's (IMHO) irrelevant in a situation where it is the North Koreans who are insisting on the one-on-one. 

Personally, I don't think the talks are going to get anywhere, multi-lateral OR bi-lateral.  The issue for North Korea is just too basic, too fundamental.  Would the US for example - - with MUCH more powerful conventional forces than North Korea - - ever be negotiated out of its nuclear arsenal?  Then how can it expect the infinitely more vulnerable North Korea to be negotiated out of its?  In the past, there could possibly have been a web of regional treaties that might have taken the place of nuclear weapons - - a mutual defence pact with China, non-aggression treaties with Japan and USA, a final peace treaty with South Korea (probably impossible because of reunification issues) but anyway some kind of diplomatic safety net.  Unfortunately this is almost  impossible today because of the widespread disrespect for international law, for which the United States must bear most of the blame. 

The contempt shown by the Bush administration for international law has - - exactly as I predicted - - led to a more lawless world, where legally binding treaties are derided as "quaint" and "old-fashioned," made to be circumvented with legal technicalities where possible and simply violated if need be.  We have been thrown backward into a more Darwinian world where each nation has to look to its own strength for its security and treaties are made to be broken.  The sad fact is, the North Koreans probably see the US desire for negotiations of any kind either as a smokescreen for an illegal attack that's already planned and budgeted for, or as an admission of weakness, proof that the US is fiscally and/or militarily unable to achieve its goals by force of arms.

In addition to keeping their nukes out of stark necessity, the North Koreans would also probably want to hang onto them in basic fairness.  How could it possibly be argued that it's fair that - - just to pick one example --  PAKISTAN - - should have nuclear weapons, but North Korea should not?  I would think that on that ground alone, there would have to be a bribe of monstrous proportions to induce the North Koreans to really and truly give up their nukes.

So I think the US ought to have a Plan B in case the face-to-face fails.  And Plan B is very simple - - just get used to it.  This is a dangerous world we live in.  Not only does North Korea have nukes, but Iran will inevitably have them as well.  The short-term solution is just to resign yourselves to a stand-off.  The ideal solution is obviously some kind of accommodation with your enemies, not a continuing confrontation.  And for that you'll definitely need a change of leadership - - not just a change of parties, but a change of generations.  I think your present generation of leaders - - on BOTH sides of the aisle - - is way too confrontational for the post-Communist world.

sirs

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Re: So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2006, 01:38:41 AM »
Here's Mr. Krauthammer's suggestion(s)

What Will Stop North Korea

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, October 13, 2006


It shall be the policy of this nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack by the Soviet Union on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union .

-- President John F. Kennedy,

Now that's deterrence.

Kennedy was pledging that if any nuke was launched from Cuba, the United States would not even bother with Cuba but would go directly to the source and bring the apocalypse to Russia with a massive nuclear attack.

The remarkable thing about this kind of threat is that in 1962 it was very credible. Indeed, its credibility kept the peace throughout a half-century of the Cold War.

Deterrence is what you do when there is no way to disarm your enemy. You cannot deprive him of his weapons, but you can keep him from using them. We long ago reached that stage with North Korea.

Everyone has tried to figure out how to disarm North Korea. It will not happen. Kim Jong Il is not going to give up his nukes. The only way to disarm the regime is to destroy it. China could do that with sanctions but will not. The United States could do that with a second Korean War but will not either.

So we are back to deterrence. Hence the familiar echoes of the Cuban missile crisis with North Korea's rude entry into the nuclear club this week. The United States had to immediately put down markers for deterrence. President Bush put down two.

One marker, preventing a direct attack on our allies in the region, was straightforward, if bland: "I reaffirmed to our allies in the region, including South Korea and Japan," the president said in a nationally televised statement, "that the United States will meet the full range of our deterrent and security commitments." It is understood by all that the decades-old American nuclear umbrella in the Pacific Rim commits us to attacking North Korea -- presumably with in-kind nuclear retaliation -- were it to attack our allies first.

Gruesome stuff, but run-of-the-mill in the nuclear age. The hard part is the second marker Bush tried to put down: proliferation deterrence.

We are in an era far more complicated than Kennedy's because his great crisis occurred before the age of terrorism. The world of 1962 was still technologically and ideologically primitive: Miniaturized nuclear weaponry had not yet been invented, nor had modern international terrorism. Yasser Arafat and the Palestine Liberation Organization gave the world that gift half a decade later with their perfection of the political airline hijacking.

Terrorism has since grown in popularity, ambition and menace. Its practitioners are in the market for nuclear weapons. North Korea has little else to sell.

Hence Bush's attempt to codify a second form of deterrence: "The transfer of nuclear weapons or material by North Korea to states or non-state entities would be considered a grave threat to the United States, and we would hold North Korea fully accountable for the consequences of such action."

A good first draft, but it could use some Kennedyesque clarity. The phrase "fully accountable" does not exactly instill fear, as it has been used promiscuously by several administrations in warnings to both terrorists and rogue states -- after which we did absolutely nothing. A better formulation would be the following:

Given the fact that there is no other nuclear power so recklessly in violation of its nuclear obligations, it shall be the policy of this nation to regard any detonation of a nuclear explosive on the United States or its allies as an attack by North Korea on the United States requiring a full retaliatory response upon North Korea.

This is how you keep Kim Jong Il from proliferating. Make him understand that his survival would be hostage to the actions of whatever terrorist group he sold his weapons to. Any terrorist detonation would be assumed to have his address on it. The United States would then return postage. Automaticity of this kind concentrates the mind.

This policy has a hitch, however. It works only in a world where there is but a single rogue nuclear state. Once that club expands to two, the policy evaporates, because a nuclear terror attack would no longer have a single automatic return address.

Which is another reason why keeping Iran from going nuclear is so important. With North Korea there is no going back. But Iran is not there yet. One rogue country is tolerable because it can be held accountable. Two rogue countries guarantees undeterrable and therefore inevitable nuclear terrorism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/12/AR2006101201668.html
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle