Author Topic: Enough said.  (Read 10939 times)

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Christians4LessGvt

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Enough said.
« on: August 22, 2007, 03:27:54 PM »
"We hear the same arguments now as we heard years ago, when some said democracy would not work in Japan".
Today Japan is one of the world?s free societies and has transformed from enemy to America?s ally in the ideological struggle of the 20th century.

The same applies to the South Korea. Sometimes the experts get things wrong, said the US president and went on to attack critics of the Vietnam War. Vietnamese people paid the price for US troop withdrawal.

Both Osama bin Laden and Zawahiri invoke Vietnam. Bin Laden said: It is for us or you to win.
If you lose, it will be your disgrace forever.

To withdraw from Iraq without getting the job done would be devastating, Bush said raising his voice. "Our troops will get everyting they need." Abandoning the Iraqi people would embolden the terrorists and they would raise more recruits. This enemy would follow us home. For America?s security we must defeat them overseas so that we don?t face them in the United States. Like Japan, a free Iraqi will be a friend to the US and an ally."


President George Bush - August 22, 2007

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Michael Tee

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2007, 05:00:55 PM »
Typical ranting and raving from a guy who's either a lunatic, an ignoramus or both.

Who are all these people who predicted that democracy would never take root in Japan?  I don't recall reading of any influential American who had such an opinion, and he or she would have had to be one dumbass fuck to have said so, since Japan had already functioned, as had Germany and Italy, as a democracy for decades prior to the rise of fascism and/or militarism.

South Korea in fact DID NOT function as a democracy until comparatively recently.  It was a rigid dictatorship that used torture and repression to keep its people in line.

It's as though almost nothing that comes out of Bush's mouth can be anything but a lie,  and only those who are totally ignorant of history can be taken in by his bullshit, but America is full of dummies, and if only half of the voters bother to vote, the dummies can tip the balance every time.

<<Both Osama bin Laden and Zawahiri invoke Vietnam. Bin Laden said: It is for us or you to win.
If you lose, it will be your disgrace forever. >>

Suddenly, bin Laden and his ilk are authorities on what's good or bad for America.  "A disgrace forever."  What the hell does he think Viet Nam was, with its 57,000 American and 2 million Vietnamese deaths, and a total defeat at the hands of Third World peasants in black pyjamas who didn't even have air-power?  Americans managed to live down that "disgrace."  In fact, they forgot all about it, in every movie they make about it, THEY are the winners.

<<To withdraw from Iraq without getting the job done would be devastating, Bush said raising his voice. >>

Better get used to it, schmuck.

<<"Our troops will get everyting they need." >>

They didn't for the past four years, who is this clown fooling now?

<<Abandoning the Iraqi people would embolden the terrorists . . . >>

Yeah, they seem very timid and combat-averse right now.  They sure could use a little stiffening of the old backbone.

<< and they would raise more recruits. >>

According to all the success stories we've been hearing from the U.S. military, the so-called "terrorists" were getting killed off like flies.  I guess the moron figures they were replenishing their ranks by resurrecting the dead, but after an American defeat, they'd be able to fill up the gaps n their ranks by more conventional recruiting.

<<l This enemy would follow us home.>>

Right.  They don't want to blow up America as long as Americans are "guests" in Iraq, but once they LEAVE Iraq, THAT'S the time to blow them up on their home turf.

<< For America?s security we must defeat them overseas so that we don?t face them in the United States. >>

I think so.  If you continue to occupy their homeland and install a puppet government to give you a big chunk of their oil sales, why would they possibly be motivated to strike at the homeland?

<<Like Japan, a free Iraqi will be a friend to the US and an ally.">>

Uhh, weren't the Japs ordered by their Emperor to stop fighting and surrender unconditionally?

This "President" is living inside somebody's pipe dream, where all he has to do is say it and it becomes true.  He's an idiot preaching to morons, but the sad thing is that there are enough morons out there to make it worth his while.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 05:22:41 PM by Michael Tee »

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2007, 10:32:12 PM »

"Who are all these people who predicted that democracy would never take root in Japan?"

"democracy in Japan would never work."  -  May 28, 1945

Joseph Grew former United States ambassador to Japan who served as Harry Truman's Under Secretary of State


"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Universe Prince

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2007, 10:57:15 PM »
Quote

Both Osama bin Laden and Zawahiri invoke Vietnam. Bin Laden said: It is for us or you to win.
If you lose, it will be your disgrace forever.


Who actually said that? Did President Bush say that? Since there is no link to a source, I can't check it out to be sure.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2007, 12:43:17 AM »
"Both Osama bin Laden and Zawahiri invoke Vietnam, Bin Laden said: "It is for us or you to win.
If you lose, it will be your disgrace forever"

Who actually said that? Did President Bush say that? Since there is no link to a source, I can't check it out to be sure"


not sure exactly what you are asking so maybe this will help:


Bin Laden: " would like to tell you that the war is for you or for us to win. If we win it, it means your defeat and disgrace forever as the wind blows in this direction with God's help".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4628932.stm


The 6,000-word letter from Osama bin Laden's chief lieutenant, Ayman Zawahiri...Invoking the specter of the United States abruptly abandoning Iraq as it did to Vietnam, Zawahiri counseled immediate political action: "We must take the initiative and impose a fait accompli upon our enemies, instead of the enemy imposing one on us."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/11/AR2005101101353_pf.html


Bin Laden: "I ask the American people to force their government to give up anti-Muslim policies. The American people had risen against their government?s war in Vietnam"
http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/10/top1.htm





"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Universe Prince

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2007, 01:14:47 AM »
No, I'm asking if President Bush said exactly this:

Quote

Both Osama bin Laden and Zawahiri invoke Vietnam. Bin Laden said: It is for us or you to win.
If you lose, it will be your disgrace forever.


Who actually said that exact sequence of words? Did President Bush make that statement? Did someone writing an article or a column or a blog entry make that statement? Who said it? A simple link to the source for your initial post would help much.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2007, 05:18:41 AM »
Quote
"  They don't want to blow up America as long as Americans are "guests" in Iraq, but once they LEAVE Iraq, THAT'S the time to blow them up on their home turf.




That does seem like the reality of the situation doesn't it?

They haven't been kiling Americans in America since 9-11 , they have instead been haveing to shoot at Americans who were prepared to shoot back. This worls better for me.

Michael Tee

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2007, 10:37:21 AM »
<<Joseph Grew former United States ambassador to Japan who served as Harry Truman's Under Secretary of State>>

Thank you for the clarification.  Without it, I am sure that not one member of this group, myself included, would have had the faintest idea who Joseph Grew was.

As far as I know, the vast majority of the American people, including its journalists, academics and military and political leaders, had no such doubts.  To tell you the truth, I am very surprised you could even dig up this one idiot.

Michael Tee

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2007, 11:27:45 AM »
<<They haven't been kiling Americans in America since 9-11 , they have instead been haveing to shoot at Americans who were prepared to shoot back. This worls better for me.>>

Better learn to read the bottom line.  They're killing and wounding Americans in Iraq instead of America.  And since the attacks in America were suicide attacks, the fact that a shaheed is killed in Iraq instead of America doesn't have any effect on the bottom line of their casualties.  All that happened is that the American targets were all shipped closer to their executioners, who were spared the trouble of plotting the logistics of killing in a distant and well-defended First World country.  Now they can do it on their home turf.

The other bonus for the Islamic Resistance is that for every day the occupation of Iraq continues, for every Iraqi killed, wounded or tortured, more are recruited to the cause every day.  And the weaker grows the position of the collaborationists in all the American puppet states.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2007, 11:30:00 AM »
"As far as I know, the vast majority of the American people, including its journalists, academics and military and political leaders, had no such doubts"

we can agree to disagree, but I think you greatly overstate the "no doubt democracy will easily work in Japan" that most Americans held after WW2. there was concern about post WW2 Japan and how they would accept MacArthur promoting the development of democracy in Japan


MacArthur:

Early in the occupation MacArthur saw the need to drastically change the Meiji Constitution. In his autobiography, MacArthur argued:

"We could not simply encourage the growth of democracy. We had to make sure that it grew. Under the old constitution, government flowed downward from the emperor, who held the supreme authority, to those to whom he had delegated power. It was a dictatorship to begin with, a hereditary one, and the people existed to serve it."


http://www.crf-usa.org/election_central/japan_democracy.htm

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Michael Tee

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2007, 11:37:58 AM »
<<MacArthur:

<<Early in the occupation MacArthur saw the need to drastically change the Meiji Constitution. In his autobiography, MacArthur argued:

<<"We could not simply encourage the growth of democracy. We had to make sure that it grew. Under the old constitution, government flowed downward from the emperor, who held the supreme authority, to those to whom he had delegated power. It was a dictatorship to begin with, a hereditary one, and the people existed to serve it."

<<http://www.crf-usa.org/election_central/japan_democracy.htm>>

I think it must have been pretty clear to the American people that the democracy that was going to take root in Japan was going to be an American-imposed and American-style democracy.  I don't think the conception of a top-down "democracy" under a hereditary all-powerful dictatorship was somehow what they had in mind or would have had in mind had anyone asked them about the chances of "democracy" in Japan.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2007, 11:40:27 AM »
In May of 1945, the Japanese were not ready for democracy. But the Japanese are among the world's most pragmatic people. They are capable of change like few civilizations in history.
The US military occupation of Japan prepared the Japanese for a constitutional monarchy along the lines of Great Britain within about five years.

The most important feature that made this possible was that a huge percentage of men between the ages of 15 and 60 were killed or seriously wounded in WWII. A society in which a majority of the population are widowed women, especially traditionally subservient Japanese women, is certainly more easily adaptable than one in which there are 50% men.

Japan served as an example to both Korea and Taiwan. Taiwanese society shared many attitudes with Japan after a 50 year Japanese occupation. It would have become democratic faster if not for the Mainland Kuomintang Army that took over in 1950.


The Japanese are clearly more adaptable than most other civilizations.One observes that Japan took perhaps 20 years to recover from a totally devastating war. It took the Confederacy at least 60 years to accomplish anything similar.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 11:44:48 AM by Xavier_Onassis »
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2007, 12:06:24 PM »
"Who actually said that exact sequence of words? Did President Bush make that statement? Did someone writing an article or a column or a blog entry make that statement? Who said it? A simple link to the source for your initial post would help much"

it is still a bit hard to understand your question.
President Bush said the words, but some of what President Bush said was when he was quoting Bin Laden
so you could say they both said some of the exact sequence of words
not sure what your point is

here is the link to President Bush's speech he made yesterday if you have doubts:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/08/20070822-3.html
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 12:10:24 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2007, 12:12:10 PM »
It took the Confederacy at least 60 years to accomplish anything similar

and really air conditioning did more to make the south boom than almost anything else
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

_JS

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Re: Enough said.
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2007, 01:02:00 PM »
"We hear the same arguments now as we heard years ago, when some said democracy would not work in Japan".
Today Japan is one of the world?s free societies and has transformed from enemy to America?s ally in the ideological struggle of the 20th century.

The same applies to the South Korea. Sometimes the experts get things wrong, said the US president and went on to attack critics of the Vietnam War. Vietnamese people paid the price for US troop withdrawal.

Both Osama bin Laden and Zawahiri invoke Vietnam. Bin Laden said: It is for us or you to win.
If you lose, it will be your disgrace forever.

To withdraw from Iraq without getting the job done would be devastating, Bush said raising his voice. "Our troops will get everyting they need." Abandoning the Iraqi people would embolden the terrorists and they would raise more recruits. This enemy would follow us home. For America?s security we must defeat them overseas so that we don?t face them in the United States. Like Japan, a free Iraqi will be a friend to the US and an ally."


President George Bush - August 22, 2007

Spoken by someone who has absolutely no grasp of history.

What a set of idiot comments.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.