Author Topic: GWB: Strategic Thinker  (Read 2645 times)

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gipper

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GWB: Strategic Thinker
« on: August 22, 2007, 09:42:03 PM »
Not leading (can he?) or thinking as a visionary (he can't), GWB today pulled out the canard he's been avoiding like the plague: a comparison of Iraq to Vietnam. Never mind that natural questions will arise about his dedication THEN to the cause in Vietnam, the president is ignoring the undeniably ugly but undeniable nonetheless sweep of history in the wake of our Vietnam defeat: Soviet Communism fell within 15 years of our lifting off with the last helicopter from the Saigon embassy. What if we had won? Would China, for example, have been threatened into a second-front Cold War? Would the Soviets have retrenched, avoided Afghanistan? It seems to me that deft states(wo)manship eventually won the day (give credit to Reagan), and not some puerile pre-report spin intended to obfuscate once more in service of a "place in history," of all things.

Plane

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2007, 05:30:57 AM »
If we had won in Vietnam , if we had supported the Hungarian revolt in the "Prague Spring" if we had taken Fide Castro into custody the way we did Manuel Norieaga.

Perhaps Communism might have fallen many years sooner?

What did Reagan do differently other than call them evil and demonstrate their weakness?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 08:03:26 PM by Plane »

Michael Tee

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2007, 10:33:13 AM »
<<If we had won in Viet-Nam , if we had supported the Hungaian revolt in the "Prague Spring" if we had taken Fide Castro into custody the way we did Manuel Noriega.

<<Perhaps Communism might have fallen many years sooner?>>

Communists have their own what-ifs, the biggest of which is what if Khruschev had stood up to Kennedy in the Cuban missile crisis as both Fidel and the Chinese had urged him to do?  The Chinese-Cuban position was that 300 million might die in China and Russia and a much smaller number in America, but that America would not have been able to absorb the hit and the Communists would be the winners.  Fidel for what it's worth was unwavering: he was ready to let the heaviest blows fall upon his own island if it meant the death of the world-wide capitalist system which had brought so much misery to so much of the world.

_JS

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2007, 12:57:57 PM »
*sigh*

We were never going to win Vietnam. It is a stupid hypothetical scenario and I'm not the least bit surprised to see someone who has an utter lack (even contempt) of academic history try and play this well-worn victim card.

Before it gets posted: But we won every major battle, the Tet offensive, blah, blah, blah...

It did not matter. Vietnam was not about Communism. Vietnam was about Vietnamese nationalism. Communism was simply a way of expressing the nationalism that the Vietnamese people desired.

It was the United States that suspended democratic elections in Vietnam, not the North Vietnamese. It was the United States that supported a very brutal regime that did not think twice about using torture on its own people. And yes, the NVA and Vietcong were far from angels, but so were we.

More to the point, Bush is full of shit because the history is not comparable to the history of other "liberated" Asian nations of the time. South Korea was ruled with an iron fisted dictatorship. Syngman Rhee was no merciful democratic leader. And this crap went well into the 1980's in South Korea (see the Gwangju Massacre). Taiwan was no different. The "Reign of White Terror" wasn't exactly a party at Chiang's house.

The truth is that we were involved in a colonial war that we barely understood. There is no feasible way we could have pacified all of Vietnam - even South Vietnam, without extremely strict, anti-democratic force for many, many years (if ever). So how many people would have been "saved?"

Not very many, if any.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

BT

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2007, 01:04:42 PM »
Sounds like a good argument for isolationism.

MYOB


_JS

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2007, 01:11:04 PM »
Sounds like a good argument for isolationism.

MYOB

No, not necessarily.

It is about understanding the specific historical circumstances that surround the given conflict. It is about understanding that the world is complex, no matter how manichaen Bush wishes it to be.

Vietnam is not Iraq and Iraq is not Vietnam. He's making a stupid comparison for some political point scoring so his simple-minded followers can go "hell yeah!" and not face reality.

We weren't going to win Vietnam, and as much as you support Bush, I think you know that Bt. An occupied Vietnam was going to save lives? Come on. Winning the military victory would have cost millions more lives, if it were even possible. Then occupying a nation where the vast majority never wanted us there and showed a great willingness to sacrifice their lives to prove it?

Surely Americans aren't that stupid, even the black & white thinkers.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

BT

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2007, 02:22:38 PM »
The issue i take is that this seems to be just another opportunity for those that wish to bash Bush.

Fact is Bush has nothing to do with us getting into Viet Nam nor did he have anything to do with getting us out of Nam.

If mistakes were made they were made by his predecessors.

The image Bush was implanting was that of helicopters on the embassy roof and the ensuing slaughter that happened afterwards.

We all pretty much agree the same will happen in Iraq.




gipper

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2007, 02:50:27 PM »
I no longer accept that slaughter as a given, BT, leaving it at least as a matter for discussion ... provided we leave IN THE RIGHT WAY.

BT

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2007, 03:20:52 PM »
What is the right way?

gipper

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2007, 03:51:14 PM »
If there is any way, the ensuing discussion should reveal it, hopefully.

BT

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2007, 03:57:31 PM »
Is the right way kinda like porn, you know it when you see it?

In your mind what criteria is necessary for you to declare the right way is being implemented?

Plane

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2007, 01:47:36 AM »
<<If we had won in Viet-Nam , if we had supported the Hungaian revolt in the "Prague Spring" if we had taken Fide Castro into custody the way we did Manuel Noriega.

<<Perhaps Communism might have fallen many years sooner?>>

Communists have their own what-ifs, the biggest of which is what if Khruschev had stood up to Kennedy in the Cuban missile crisis as both Fidel and the Chinese had urged him to do?  The Chinese-Cuban position was that 300 million might die in China and Russia and a much smaller number in America, but that America would not have been able to absorb the hit and the Communists would be the winners.  Fidel for what it's worth was unwavering: he was ready to let the heaviest blows fall upon his own island if it meant the death of the world-wide capitalist system which had brought so much misery to so much of the world.


So the death of half the world is better than haveing landlords owning land?

Reagan had them pegged they were an evil Empire .

gipper

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2007, 07:43:53 AM »
That's a very good question, of course, BT. I guess the roughest statement of the principle I would work from (as opposed to the definite answer I would give) is that the chances for peace would be enhanced and the loss of life over time and its oppression would be lessened by the course of action we choose. I know that's vague, but starting out I can't be any more precise. I toy with the idea of a loose federation or outright tripartite separation on treaty terms but he ramifications of that are basically an unknown to me. But there's got to be a better way. The present arrangement is simply not sustainable. Good arguments can be made that Bush's is a failing or already failed policy. And if through some miracle a "victory" anywhere near the sort he envisions could be achieved, it would be Pyrrhic indeed, as it would cost us and that region and the world much more than it yields. Especially in light of the recent NIE evaluation that the political situation in Iraq -- the crucial indicator and engine for change -- will worsen over the course of the next year, new ideas, not old canards, have to be entertained. Unfortunately, Bush seems to offer only the latter, and it's not scheduled to get any more astute, I would venture, in Karl Rove's absence. Senator Warner's call for a reduction in troop levels yesterday, insignificant as an absolute matter of numbers, does, however, signal a good start to rethinking the problem all the way across the political spectrum ... and to send a message to Iraq and its region that we are doing so.

Michael Tee

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2007, 08:05:21 AM »
<<What is the right way?>>

What was the right way for the Nazis to leave Poland or France?

The right way is to get out immediately, apologize and pay huge reparations to re-build the infrastructure and to compensate the families of the victims and rehabilitate as much as possible the injured.

Why bother asking what is the right way when the country has persistently acted in the wrong way?  Why expect NOW that the U.S. will suddenly turn to international law and do right after all these years of doing wrong?

The question itself bothers me because of its hypocrisy.  It assumes that if the U.S. knew the right thing to do, it would do the right thing.  This is bullshit.  Their actions do not stem from ignorance as much as from criminality.  Questions like that are just whitewash.  And the U.S. has ZERO intention of doing the right thing.  You can take that to the bank.

Michael Tee

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Re: GWB: Strategic Thinker
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2007, 08:08:17 AM »
<<So the death of half the world is better than haveing landlords owning land?>>

It is not "landlords owning land."  It is billions of Third World people living lives of poverty due to capitalist exploitation of their resources.  It is an option - - which the Chinese people took - - of liberating themselves from debt and slavery to foreign interests and allowing their own talents to be put to work in their own interests.  It' the end of U.S. and European exploitation.

<<Reagan had them pegged they were an evil Empire .>>

Reagan was 180 degrees off.  The Evil Empire is the U.S.A.