Universal Health System is Doomed to Failure

[Christians4LessGvt]

"Do you recall the source of that?"
CBS News
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/20/health/main681801.shtml

"What better use could the money be used for?" 
Maybe a system that was not failing?

"Anything better than my health?"
Your system is doomed, can you not see reality?
Did you not read the article?
Private care is popping up every day in Canada.
The Canadian Supreme Court basically said care was so pathetic that citizens could go around the failing system to get help.

[_JS]

That is flat out untrue.

Canada spends 16.7% of its Government revenue on Health Care and that varies by province.

The United States spends 18.5% of its Government revenue on health care.

Romanow Report

It should also be noted that Canada's health expenses as a ratio of GDP growth is going down, the exact opposite of what is happening here.

[BT]

Sorry.  I don't recall the question.  But I don't know the answer.  There isn't any specific payroll tax, only payroll deductions (a.k.a. "withholdings") on account of the individual's income tax obligations.

So you don't know how much this "free" health care actually costs you?

What percentage of each earned dollar is subject to taxation on your paycheck and do any other sources of taxation like a federal or provincial sales tax goes into the kitty?

Sounds to me like your government is hiding the cost per worker of your UHC program.

[_JS]

That would be $0.167 per $1.00

[Christians4LessGvt]

"That is flat out untrue. Canada spends 16.7% of its Government revenue on Health Care and that varies by province"




Canadian Health Care In Crisis
TORONTO, March 20, 2005

The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from province to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation

The system is going broke, says the federation, which campaigns for tax reform and private enterprise in health care.

It calculates that at present rates, Ontario will be spending 85 percent of its budget on health care by 2035. "We can't afford a state monopoly on health care anymore," says Tasha Kheiriddin, Ontario director of the federation. "We have to examine private alternatives as well."

The federal government and virtually every province acknowledge there's a crisis: a lack of physicians and nurses, state-of-the-art equipment and funding. In Ontario, more than 10,000 nurses and hospital workers are facing layoffs over the next two years unless the provincial government boosts funding, says the Ontario Hospital Association, which represents health care providers in the province.

[_JS]

according to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation

I think I've spotted your problem.

[BT]

That would be $0.167 per $1.00

What would that be?

17 cents for every dollar earned gioes to UHC?

[_JS]

No. That's how much of one's tax dollar goes to health care in Canada.

[Universe Prince]

What amazes me is that people scrape the Internet to find articles critical of healthcare systems in Canada and Britain.

One, I don't believe one has to "scrape" the Internet to find these articles. Two, if other socialized health care systems are facing problems, don't you think that is information relevant to a debate about a possible adoption of socialized health care in the U.S.? Or do you advocate that we ignore those problems and forge ahead as if nothing bad could possibly come of it?

[_JS]

One, I don't believe one has to "scrape" the Internet to find these articles. Two, if other socialized health care systems are facing problems, don't you think that is information relevant to a debate about a possible adoption of socialized health care in the U.S.? Or do you advocate that we ignore those problems and forge ahead as if nothing bad could possibly come of it?

Of course it is relevant and I believe in gathering all worthwhile information.

What amazes me are those who seek a desired outcome and go searching for that information, all the while ignoring the rest of the data.

[Michael Tee]

<<So you don't know how much this "free" health care actually costs you?>>

I do now.  It's 16.7% of government revenues, varying by province.  Thanks, JS.  And the tax brackets vary, I believe the highest earners are in the 53% bracket but I wouldn't bet my life on it.  There are so many tax schemes, tax dodges etc. that nobody really pays the percentage that the Income Tax Act allots to them.

<<What percentage of each earned dollar is subject to taxation on your paycheck and do any other sources of taxation like a federal or provincial sales tax goes into the kitty?>>

Federal and provincial sales taxes are very unpopular so they would virtually have to go into health care otherwise how would the government ever defend them?  And who the hell counts how much sales tax he or she pays?

<<Sounds to me like your government is hiding the cost per worker of your UHC program. >>

All governments hide the cost of everything.  When did YOUR government tell you the truth about what anything costs?  Did they tell you how much Iraq was gonna cost?

   <<So you don't know how much this "free" health care actually costs you?>>

Fucking right I know.  I pay my taxes, have ALL my health-care needs attended to and still manage to live a pretty good life.  Good roads, education, policing, public transport, roads and bridges.  No I can't figure out what it costs me any more than I can figure out what national defence costs me or Canada's participation in the international trademark and copyright registration system costs me.  I don't know what the fucking police cost me, either.

I know somebody I trust like Roy Romanow did an exhaustive study and lent his name to it, and the study concludes that I am getting my money's worth out of it.  I know that a bunch of rich greedy scumbags (The Canadian Taxpayers Foundation) say that Romanow's wrong.  I trust Romanow and I don't trust the Canadian Taxpayers Foundation.  Weird, huh?  Maybe you'd like to trust the Taxpayers Foundation instead of Romanow.  That's your privilege.  Go right ahead.  After all, you trusted Bush, didn't you?

As far as CU4's articles are concerned, the "condemnation" of our system by the Supreme Court was by a 5-4 margin and refers to unacceptable wait times.  These can be resolved in two ways: private clinics in effect violating existing legislation or raising taxes to pay for more public clinics.  The current government for purely ideological reasons has permitted private clinics to operate without withholding federal payments to the provinces in which the clinics are operating.  Once again what CU4 is reporting is not the failure of the system but the ideologically-motivated decision of a right-wing government to sabotage the system.

[Henny]

What amazes me is that people scrape the Internet to find articles critical of healthcare systems in Canada and Britain.

One, I don't believe one has to "scrape" the Internet to find these articles. Two, if other socialized health care systems are facing problems, don't you think that is information relevant to a debate about a possible adoption of socialized health care in the U.S.? Or do you advocate that we ignore those problems and forge ahead as if nothing bad could possibly come of it?

Prince, I agree with you that we should analyze other models while considering our own.

However, you have to admit that the attitude of some isn't the reasonable one that you've just described - they DO scrape for information to discredit other systems and use those findings as a reason to dismiss the idea that we could come up with anything better here.

[Religious Dick]

Yep, this system sure is doomed to failure.  It's the reason you Americans live so much longer than we Canadians - - oh, wait a second, I forgot:  You don't.   BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I like these comparisons with countries that have maybe about 1/6th of our population, and most of it concentrated in certain areas. How about comparing us to a country with a similar population and demographics, and see how we stack up?

Actually, on a state by state basis, if you look at the states that border Canada, that is, those where the living conditions and demographics are similar, most of them have health care statistics comparable to or better than those of Canada. I believe I've posted that data here before.

[BT]

It's 16.7% of government revenues, varying by province

I don't believe that is the same as taxpayer burden.

The question i have is what does it really cost a taxpayer in percentage of dollar earned.

In the USA we know that it costs a wage earner 7.65% to fund SS and Medicare. for the self employed i believe it is around 15%.

What is the apples to apples figure for Canada.
This should not be tha hard a number to find for a "free" health system.

Why are they hiding this?

[_JS]

It's 16.7% of government revenues, varying by province

I don't believe that is the same as taxpayer burden.

The question i have is what does it really cost a taxpayer in percentage of dollar earned.

In the USA we know that it costs a wage earner 7.65% to fund SS and Medicare. for the self employed i believe it is around 15%.

What is the apples to apples figure for Canada.
This should not be tha hard a number to find for a "free" health system.

Why are they hiding this?

They aren't.

It varies by province. Alberta for example, charges a fee for medical services. You're looking at it too simply.