The paranoid style of the American left. (Must Read)

[Amianthus]

They're not regimented and controlled like Fascism,

I'm assuming you're talking about Republicans here.

Based on comments Terra made, I went and checked the voting records from the 01-03 congress. The trend is that the Democrats actually vote as block more often than the Republicans. So much for "regimented and controlled" and "marching in lockstep."

[Michael Tee]

<<In this latest Hez excursion, they were afraid to bomb a few marketplaces to get the scumbags. With this attitude, they WILL LOSE. Too bad, they had such promise too.>>

Sorry, but you've got the wrong attitude.  Everything you advocate for them is wrong.  But the one thing you need to stop and think about is this:  there was one incident where the Jews killed dozens of Lebanese children in one bombing raid.  According to you, this was the right thing to do, so they should have pressed on.  What did they do instead?  CALLED A HALT to all bombing for 24 hours.

Well, the question to consider is why?  Why call a halt to something that according to you is the right path?  IMHO, they (and their American patrons) were scared shitless.  Not of the Hezbollah.  They were scared shitless of the reaction in the Arab streets of the capitals of the American puppet states, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia.  IF the Israelis had continued with that kind of campaign and the puppet governments just sat on their hands as usual during the slaughter, the streets of those capitals would have exploded.  In short order, the U.S. would have lost three client states like they lost Iran.  Gone.  THAT'S what the Israelis are up against and that's why world opinion is important.  The Israelis can get away with all kinds of atrocities - - and they have - -  but there are limits.  Intelligent people know those limits and respect them.

Your attitude is really fucked up.  You should be thinking of ways to accommodate the Arabs and end this pointless dead-end hostility that ultimately will lead to a disaster for Israel.  Don't believe me, just look at the numbers.  Way better to have those folks as friends helping friends instead of maniacs with bombs.  Macho posturing is fun for a while but all of the victims bleed real blood.  It's just as much a tragedy for a mother in Baghdad as for a mother in Tel Aviv and the sooner you realize that the more constructive your efforts become.

[Michael Tee]

<<I'm assuming you're talking about Republicans here.>>

No, Mr. Perceptive was speaking of Democrats and I responded to his comments about Democrats.

[gipper]

Michael, waxing, indeed raving, morally indignant, you fail to address the real, monstrous problems these two peoples face in coming to a genuine reconciliation, which your sloganeering simply doesn't begin to approach. How much disruption, how much death -- if it is fated -- is worth your dreamlike result, an elusive one indeed?

[Mr_Perceptive]

JS: "They just didn't have the stomach for it."

I realize this. They've gone soft, just like us. Too damned bad, too. War is fought to win not gain popularity. We tend to forget that. To our chagrin.

[Mr_Perceptive]

<<In this latest Hez excursion, they were afraid to bomb a few marketplaces to get the scumbags. With this attitude, they WILL LOSE. Too bad, they had such promise too.>>

Sorry, but you've got the wrong attitude.  Everything you advocate for them is wrong.  But the one thing you need to stop and think about is this:  there was one incident where the Jews killed dozens of Lebanese children in one bombing raid.  According to you, this was the right thing to do, so they should have pressed on.  What did they do instead?  CALLED A HALT to all bombing for 24 hours.

Well, the question to consider is why?  Why call a halt to something that according to you is the right path?  IMHO, they (and their American patrons) were scared shitless.  Not of the Hezbollah.  They were scared shitless of the reaction in the Arab streets of the capitals of the American puppet states, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia.  IF the Israelis had continued with that kind of campaign and the puppet governments just sat on their hands as usual during the slaughter, the streets of those capitals would have exploded.  In short order, the U.S. would have lost three client states like they lost Iran.  Gone.  THAT'S what the Israelis are up against and that's why world opinion is important.  The Israelis can get away with all kinds of atrocities - - and they have - -  but there are limits.  Intelligent people know those limits and respect them.

Your attitude is really fucked up.  You should be thinking of ways to accommodate the Arabs and end this pointless dead-end hostility that ultimately will lead to a disaster for Israel.  Don't believe me, just look at the numbers.  Way better to have those folks as friends helping friends instead of maniacs with bombs.  Macho posturing is fun for a while but all of the victims bleed real blood.  It's just as much a tragedy for a mother in Baghdad as for a mother in Tel Aviv and the sooner you realize that the more constructive your efforts become.

Nope, you are dead wrong. I have friends in the Mosad. They were afraid of US reaction. They care a rat's ass what Damascus thinks. The Arabs don't like it? Geez, that's really too bad. Pansies anyway. I had a Saudi brigande in my "exercise unit" twice and thye were the most lazy soldiers I've ever seen. We had to recalibrate their main tank gun twice becuase thye said it was their gun that was making thme miss, not THEM. Both times, it was the soldiers, not the weapon. At 1000 yards, they missed a targeted berm four friggin' times! And, they stopped thier wheerls and took a friggin' lunch during manuevers, a lunch damnit!

[Mr_Perceptive]

Michael Tee: "You should be thinking of ways to accommodate the Arabs and end this pointless dead-end hostility that ultimately will lead to a disaster for Israel."

You really probalby already know how I WOULD accomodate them. Five gets you ten I could terminate four Syrian tank divisions with one Abrams brigade and, tell you what, just for added juice, I'll man ours with Army pukes not REAL solidiers.

The best are not the Syrians anyway; its the Jordanians. They are smart enough to leave well enough alone, though.

[gipper]

Perceptive, your slash and burn attitude is the polar opposite of the protect and defend orientation needed for true reconciliation to proceed. I spit on your proscriptions, politely, of course.

[Richpo64]

>> "You should be thinking of ways to accommodate the Arabs ... <<

There's the leftist solution. How much lube it will take isn't even negotiable.

[Mr_Perceptive]

Perceptive, your slash and burn attitude is the polar opposite of the protect and defend orientation needed for true reconciliation to proceed. I spit on your proscriptions, politely, of course.

Pacifism never got anyone anything constructive but a rocket up the ass!

You deal from a position of strength, always, and you then do what is necessary to accomplish the assigned objectives.

True reconciliation between Isreal and the Arabs won't happen, of course. Too very different mindsets. I present a postion that the Isrealis should just put up and shut up and realize this and plan their foreign policy accordingly.

Example: next time a rocket gets sent into an Isreali community, you track it back to its origin. Takes about four minutes to reposition the tube, gear it all down and vacate hte spot, probably longer for these tribal rubes...Of course, it will be long gone by then. But, you slash and burn anything within a thousand meters of that spot. You continue this policy for the next rocket and so on until the point is mine that if you mess with mine, you get yours. Simple and effective. Might take a bunch of casualties, but in the long run, definitely worth it, from an Isreali point of view.

[gipper]

THAT Israeli viewpoint is insane and immoral, period, and I will fight it effectively.

[Mr_Perceptive]

>> "You should be thinking of ways to accommodate the Arabs ... <<

There's the leftist solution. How much lube it will take isn't even negotiable.

Remember the old Lay's potato chip commercials: "Bet you can't eat just one?"

Well, this ilike that. You give in, er, accomodate, once and then, before you know it, they want more and the price escalates and then you're up shit's creek without a paddle. The more effective way is to use the paddle on their heads not in the water and early on when the point of discipline is more, shall we say, poignant.

[Richpo64]

>>THAT Israeli viewpoint is insane and immoral, period, and I will fight it effectively.<<

<chuckle>

How? By eating it?

[Mr_Perceptive]

THAT Israeli viewpoint is insane and immoral, period, and I will fight it effectively.

Damn, but I am shaking in my boots!

You'll just do more harm than good. You're the type to encourage Isreal to give away lands they fought for.

Anyone with a brain knows you never give away hard-fought land -- EVER. You die for it, with gusto if necessary, but you never give it away.

Go ahead -- talk to the Arabs, but you'll never make real headway and even if you make a deal, they'll renege. It's in the culture, man. Trust in strength not words. Words will fail you in the end.

[Michael Tee]

<<Nope, you are dead wrong. I have friends in the Mosad. They were afraid of US reaction.>>

Same thing.  The U.S. was afraid of street revolutions costing them good, compliant satellite regimes.  And no matter what your friends in the Mossad told you, that thought must have crossed their minds as well.