Author Topic: Call It War, Mr. President  (Read 2185 times)

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Plane

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Re: Call It War, Mr. President
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2007, 12:33:03 AM »
<<And there you have it , well stated indeed, the reason that we very much want to foster the establishment of Democracy in the quarter of the world that might become our enemy , thank you.>>

Nice theory, except the reasons you are in Iraq have nothing to do with the establishment of a democracy.  In fact the U.S. has NEVER fostered the establishment of a democracy anywhere in the Middle East, ever.  Quite the opposite in fact.  Not only does the U.S. support the most tyrannical Middle Eastern dictatorships, ones which do not hesitate to use horrible forms of torture on their opponents, but it actually supports the active undermining and/or overthrow of democratically elected governments in the Middle East, such as Hamas recently and the Mossadegh government of Iran before that.


<<On the other hand Americans are not getting any more wealth off of Iraqi oil than Iranian or Canadian oil , if oil were the real reason for it all Saddam would have served as well as anyone.>>

Uh, that's an extremely naive and unrealistic view of American intentions in Iraq.  When the Iraqi hydrocarbons law is finally passed, a substantial share of the profits of new wells will go to foreign concessions.  It is inconceivable that the lion's share of those profits, those from the most lucrative investments, will not go to Americans directly or indirectly.  Under the Saddam-era hydrocarbons law, no foreigners got their hands on ANY of the profits of the oil wells.  You can take it as a given that the Americans did not fight this war so that the primary foreign beneficiaries of the new hydrocarbons law would be the French, the Russians or the Chinese.  This is an old-fashioned colonial war for resources, nothing more, nothing less.  The only thing new about it is the rationalization.


I can conceive of a lot more idealism than you can apparently.

Iraq needs a hydrocarbon law, but Iraqis are writing it I can't conceive of them turning down a better deal offered by a Chinese drilling concern , they are in no condition to waste money.

If American drillers want a slice of the business they had best bid competitively.

You have to qualify that the US has not fostered democracy in the middle east because we have indeed fostered democracy in Europe and Asia , and havet we benefited a lot from the establishment of democracy where it has succeeded?

Michael Tee

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Re: Call It War, Mr. President
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2007, 12:36:34 AM »
<<do you not read my posts?
<<no not anything like iraq
<<we do not have the same goals in Iran as we do in Iraq>>

Sorry.  I did overlook your point.

However, I don't think you will be able to destroy the Iranian military by bombing.  That's a pipe dream.  I'm sure they have contingency plans for dealing with bombing and they'd be pretty similar to Iraq's plans.  Disperse into small units.  Maintain a command and communication system that can survive the destruction of the current level of available technology.  Adapt to guerrilla or secret-army conditions.  IMHO, they'd probably retain the capacity to strike back at American bases in the Middle East and possibly elsewhere.  Plans for dispersal and/or reconstitution of the current state of nuclear development are probably underway already.  Duplicate sites.  Dummy targets.  Safe havens.  Pre-purchase options on vital equipment from third parties.  You're not exactly dealing with unsophisticated morons here.

Michael Tee

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Re: Call It War, Mr. President
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2007, 12:58:30 AM »
<<I can conceive of a lot more idealism than you can apparently.>>

I think in this case what you mean is that you are a lot more gullible than I am concerning America's nefarious intentions in Iraq.

<<Iraq needs a hydrocarbon law [WRONG!]  but Iraqis are writing it [wrong again]>>

Iraq already has a perfectly good hydrocarbons law.  It was written during the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party rule.  It prohibited foreigners from owning any of the oil wells or sharing in any of the oil profits.  This kept all the profits of the wells in Iraq and ensured the development of a native Iraqi petroleum industry.  Needless to say, the law is not favoured by the Americans and the government, which owes its very existence and protection from their own people to the American army, is re-writing the hydrocarbons law to something that the Americans can accept, i.e. to one that will give them partial (up to 90% according to the first draft) ownership of the wells.

<<I can't conceive of them turning down a better deal offered by a Chinese drilling concern , they are in no condition to waste money.>>

You better conceive of it, because by accepting the law the Americans are ramming down their throats, they've already rejected the BEST of all possible deals: they develop their own wells with their own people and their own resources, as they have always been able to do in the past without outside help, AND they get to keep 100% of the profits.  So, yeah, I CAN conceive of them turning down some nice Chinese deals in favour of some not-so-nice U.S. deals.  If the U.S. invaded them once on a phony pretext to get that oil, they'll do it again, and again and again, if need be.  Fortunately none of the Iraqi puppets, er, I mean legislators, are stupid enough to miss that rather basic point.

<<If American drillers want a slice of the business they had best bid competitively.>>

Or tell Dick Cheney that they smell WMD under that sand.

<<You have to qualify that the US has not fostered democracy in the middle east because we have indeed fostered democracy in Europe and Asia , and havet we benefited a lot from the establishment of democracy where it has succeeded?>>

You didn't "foster democracy" in Europe or Japan because they already had democracy of their own.  You certainly didn't foster democracy in South Korea or China, in fact you backed the Syngman Rhee and KMT dictatorships.  Conditions in Europe are very much different than the middle east, there are large homogeneous populations with long histories of independence and strong cultural identities, not to say well-developed militaries.  What happened in Europe is peculiar to Europe.  The U.S.A., in conjunction with its allies, Great Britain, France and the U.S.S.R., defeated fascism.  At that point, the European powers, France and Britain, would not have tolerated American-backed fascist dictatorships anywhere in western Europe and the U.S.S.R. would not have tolerated them anywhere in eastern Europe.  So what you "fostered" in Europe had very little to do with what you wished for and very much to do with what was inevitable anyway.

The fact is that you have never fostered any democracy in the Middle East but have actively worked against them.   It is ridiculous to claim that somehow Iraq is different, that THERE and nowhere else America is fostering a democracy.  That is such egregious bullshit that I can't think of anyone outside the U.S.A. who would even consider it for a minute.  What the U.S. wants in Iraq is a pliable satellite much like Egypt or Jordan, someone to do their bidding and carry their water.

Plane

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Re: Call It War, Mr. President
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2007, 01:30:44 AM »


Why do you think that the US is involved in Iraqi law writing? Especially the hydrocarbon law?
The election of the legislature was too much effort to make a sham of it we re invested in blood as well as money.

Why do you think that the Iraqi oil fields could ever have been exploited without assistance from foreign firms?

Why do you think that the Iraqi people were benefited from the policy's that were untended to house Saddam in fifty castles and enrich his support?


I don't see the profit rolling in that you do , nor how it couldn't have been arranged with Saddam if that was all we wanted.

Michael Tee

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Re: Call It War, Mr. President
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2007, 01:50:46 AM »
<<Why do you think that the US is involved in Iraqi law writing? Especially the hydrocarbon law?>>

[shakes his head sadly]  The money, plane.  It's for the money.


<<The election of the legislature was too much effort to make a sham of it we re invested in blood as well as money.>>

I beg to differ.  You got a fig-leaf that fooled a relatively small number of people, yourself evidently included, but the Bush administration doesn't really give a shit.  They got the biggest fig leaf they were able to get and for the rest of the people here and all over the world, who AREN'T taken in by any of it, the Bush administration has a simple answer:  "Fuck 'em."

<<Why do you think that the Iraqi oil fields could ever have been exploited without assistance from foreign firms?>>

Because that's how they were exploited before, under Saddam Hussein.  Maybe they needed foreign firms in the beginning, but that was then and this is now.  They DON'T need foreign firms now.  It's like the U.S.A. - - once they needed British capital and British military protection.  Now they don't.

<<Why do you think that the Iraqi people were benefited from the policy's that were untended to house Saddam in fifty castles and enrich his support?>>

Because they got free education and health care, short work hours and long vacations.  Could they have had even better free education and medical care if they didn't have to support Saddam's life-style?  Probably not, the money would have gone into national reserves or the military.  They already had one of the highest standards of living in the Middle East - - how much more could 23 million people  have squeezed out of fifty palaces anyway?

<<I don't see the profit rolling in that you do , nor how it couldn't have been arranged with Saddam if that was all we wanted.>>

You're kidding me, right?  You couldn't even "persuade" Saddam to keep selling his oil for dollars instead of euros, let alone to share his wealth with you.  Saddam was a puppet who cut his strings, and THAT was what you couldn't stand.  If you did a deal with THAT puppet, who knows what the others would start to demand?