Author Topic: Soros  (Read 6926 times)

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sirs

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Re: Soros
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2007, 04:57:41 PM »
This can't be made any more simpler Tee.  The title of a book, in no way demonstrates his "support for invasion"  His WORDS do so.  Now, put your money where your mouth is................................or is this yet another in an endless ocean of unsubstantiated accusations, many of them bald faced lies?

Here, I'll even start it for you.... Look you pompous fascist war loving Bush kissing nazi, right here in *insert link*, Pollack clearly says (Note, that's doesn't mean implies, or suggests, or any other loophole of irrational rationalization on your part, he actually claims support for invastion with this quote) "________________________________________________"

Ball in your court
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Soros
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2007, 05:29:57 PM »
Follow up "?" for Tee.......have you even read this book of Pollack's you claim is Pollack's support for invasion??
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2007, 12:37:44 AM »
Look you pompous fascist war-loving Bush-kissing Nazi, it says right here in Wikipedia's article on Kenneth Pollack that:

<<The second [book of Pollack's] The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq details the history of United States actions against Iraq since the Persian Gulf War. He discusses the need to invade Iraq, and the possible ways of going about it. Pollack argued that Saddam Hussein was simply too volatile and aggressive in his policies to be trusted not to begin another conflict in a volatile region. Many have criticized his support for the Invasion of Iraq, including war reporter Robert Fisk.>>

Thank you for your helpful suggestions on how to begin my post.  They were very much appreciated.

Trusting this meets with your satisfaction.  Sorry I did not feel up to buying my own copy of this A-hole's book just to back up my allegations, but I believe Wikipedia when it says that Pollack wrote a book titled The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq, and I believe Wikipedia when it says that the book discussed the need to invade Iraq and how to do it, and I believe Wikipedia when it says that Robert Fisk (a reporter who I happen to respect and trust) and others have criticized Pollack's support for the invasion of Iraq.  I further believe that if a book is wholly or partially titled, The Case for Invading Iraq, then in all likelihood it will in fact advocate the invasion of Iraq; further that if Robert Fisk criticized Pollack for supporting the invasion of Iraq, then in all likelihood, Pollack did support it.

That's more or less all the evidence that I have in support of my allegation that, far from being a staunch opponent of the war "from the get-go," as you have so fatuously asserted, Pollack in fact was a strong and prominent supporter of the war.  I would like to say that I am quite satisfied with this evidence that Pollack was in fact a supporter of the war.

Now OTOH you may feel that the evidence that I have relied upon in coming to conclusion that Pollack supported the war is just not good enough.   So, although I have done you the courtesy of setting out my reasons in excruciating detail, I fully expect that you will not be convinced by them, due to reasons which I do not care to speculate upon.  Alas, my dear sir, I do not give a shit one way or the other whether you accept this reasoning or not. I will say that I have not read any of Pollack's books, nor do I intend to.  The man is obviously full-time paid agent of Zionist propaganda, works in a Zionist-founded institution and answers to a Zionist boss and a Zionist founder. 

As to the content of his books, not having read them, I express no opinion.  As to whether  or not his second book supports the war on Iraq, not having read the book, but having read Wikipedia's brief account of it, I rely on Wikipedia and I believe that it does.

BT

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Re: Soros
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2007, 12:44:53 AM »
The term Fisking, or to Fisk, is blogosphere slang describing detailed point-by-point criticism that highlights errors, disputes the analysis of presented facts, or highlights other problems in a statement, article, or essay.[1]

Eric S. Raymond, in the Jargon File, defined the term as:

    A point-by-point refutation of a blog entry or (especially) news story. A really stylish fisking is witty, logical, sarcastic and ruthlessly factual; flaming or handwaving is considered poor form. Named after Robert Fisk, a British journalist who was a frequent (and deserving) early target of such treatment.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisking

Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2007, 12:55:46 AM »
I'm a supporter of Eric S. Raymond, in a way, having purchased and enjoyed very much his New Hacker's Dictionary.  Wonderful and fascinating work. 

Wikipedia, in its article on Fisk, also mentions "fisking" and devotes a section of the main article to criticism of Fisk's reporting.   As far as I can tell, it is the usual mudslinging that any reporter can expect if he is not singing from the Zionist hymnal and is more of a testament to his integrity and refusal to sell out than to any reportorial deficiencies.  Here is the Wikipedia summary of the criticisms levelled against Fisk: (no quote marks hereafter, since everything that follows is a direct quote from wikipedia)

Fisk's reporting and commentary style has made him the object of criticism, to the extent that some bloggers[19][20][21] have coined the blogosphere term fisking ("a point-by-point refutation of a blog entry or a news story"). [22][23][24][25] Robert Fisk has been bitterly criticised by the Irish opinion columnist Eoghan Harris. Harris has written, "I think he does us a favour by being so forthright. For my money his analysis of Middle East politics is a first cousin to believing that aliens take away people in Flying Saucers".[2]

In an essay titled, "Why does John Malkovich want to kill me?", Fisk states that he and other journalists who criticize U.S. and Israeli policy in the Middle East will have to deal with hate mail and death threats. In that essay, he refers to actor John Malkovich's remark in May 2002 at the Cambridge Union Society, when asked who he would like to fight to the death, that he would rather just shoot Fisk.[26]

Guardian columnist Simon Hoggart (also a former Northern Ireland reporter), has leveled criticism at Fisk for being, "dreadfully pessimistic" since 9/11, because of his predictions that "the (actions of the) West (in response to 9/11) was about to bring total disaster upon its own head". Hoggart also cites claims brought forward in commentary submitted by Fisk over the years, specifically that "a group of British soldiers lost in the desert" meant that Desert Storm would fail, and that the bombing campaign during the Kosovo crisis would "only make things worse" . While acknowledging "his brilliant and vivid reporting", Hoggart stated in 2001 that Fisk's pessimism reveals judgement that is, "not just mistaken, but reliably mistaken".[27]

Ethan Bronner, in a New York Times review of Fisk's book, The Great War for Civilisation argues that Fisk is "most passionate and least informed about Israel," pursues his agenda "nearly to the exclusion of the pursuit of straight journalism" and allows his points to be "warped by his perspective."[28]. Sean Gannon, in an article for Frontpage agrees writing that Fisk's worldview is "shaped almost entirely by the highly-partisan historical and political perspectives Osama bin Laden described as 'neutral'... For Fisk the real axis of evil comprises, not the terror-sponsoring, WMD-seeking dictatorships of the world, but the ?Likudist? establishment in Jerusalem, Washington?s neo-Conservative cabals and the ?international Zionist lobby." [3]

Israeli historian Efraim Karsh, in a Commentary Magazine book review, commented on what he saw as Fisk's carelessness with facts:
?    It is difficult to turn a page of The Great War for Civilisation without encountering some basic error. Jesus was born in Bethlehem, not, as Fisk has it, in Jerusalem. The Caliph Ali, the Prophet Mohammed?s cousin and son-in-law, was murdered in the year 661, not in the 8th century. Emir Abdallah became king of Transjordan in 1946, not 1921. The Iraqi monarchy was overthrown in 1958, not 1962; Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem, was appointed by the British authorities, not elected; Ayatollah Khomeini transferred his exile from Turkey to the holy Shiite city of Najaf not during Saddam Hussein?s rule but fourteen years before Saddam seized power. Security Council resolution 242 was passed in November 1967, not 1968; Anwar Sadat of Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1979, not 1977, and was assassinated in October 1981, not 1979. Yitzhak Rabin was Minister of Defence, not prime minister, during the first Palestinian intifada, and al-Qaeda was established not in 1998 but a decade earlier. And so on and so forth.[29]    ?

The pro-Israel Boston-based media watchdog CAMERA has criticised Fisk on a number of occasions for things he has written or said. In one case, they criticised Fisk for quoting an Israeli journalist to the effect that "[Israeli PM Menachem] Begin described [the Palestinians] in a speech in the Knesset as 'beasts walking on two legs'." According to CAMERA, Begin was not speaking about Palestinians in general but only about terrorists who harm Israeli children.[4][5]

CAMERA also accused Fisk of asserting that journalistic objectivity is "no longer relevant" to the Middle East and that instead journalists are "morally bound ... to show eloquent compassion to the victims."[30][31]

BT

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Re: Soros
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2007, 01:01:14 AM »
Fisk is to biased journalism as Benedict Arnold is to traitors.

Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2007, 01:25:08 AM »
Fisk writes from a POV but he does not invent facts, to my knowledge, and the historical errors in his book are more an indictment of his publishers and editors than they are of the man himself.  I considered the source of the criticism, an Israeli professor of history.  Historians can always pick holes in books by reporters, that's why publishers and editors employ fact-checkers.  In this case, it appears the fact-checkers left a lot to be desired but OTOH the errors were mostly insignificant and inconsequential. 

The criticism reported by Wikipedia was pretty non-impressive, mostly (from the one Gentile cited) undocumented allegations of undue pessimism, wrong predictions of outcomes (two examples given, neither impressive) and from the rest of the critics, the standard boilerplate routine slanders reserved by AIPAC and its propaganda mill for anyone who publicly deviates from the pro-Israel line on the Middle East.

It's just mindless parrotting to pick up on the Zionist allegations of bias and stick them on Fisk.  He's a good honest reporter who tells it like it is and the Zionists absolutely hate him for it.

BT

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Re: Soros
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2007, 01:43:02 AM »
lol

that's pretty weak mikey.

Did you type that with a straight face?

sirs

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Re: Soros
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2007, 02:17:24 AM »
Look you pompous fascist war-loving Bush-kissing Nazi, it says right here in Wikipedia's article on Kenneth Pollack that:

<<The second [book of Pollack's] The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq details the history of United States actions against Iraq since the Persian Gulf War. He discusses the need to invade Iraq, and the possible ways of going about it. Pollack argued that Saddam Hussein was simply too volatile and aggressive in his policies to be trusted not to begin another conflict in a volatile region.Many have criticized his support for the Invasion of Iraq, including war reporter Robert Fisk.>>

Thank you for your helpful suggestions on how to begin my post.  They were very much appreciated.  Trusting this meets with your satisfaction.  

No, since it neither presents a claim or quote of Pollack, simply reinforces what most every other rationally minded person believed at the time, that Saddam was a threat to the region.  Quoting Wikipedia quoting a reporter by the name of Fisk, is not quoting Pollack, especially when the same source Wikipedia, also demonstrates the obvious problems Fisk has with "objective" reporting, as highlighted by Bt.  Your follow-up attempt to try and rationalize Fisk's shortcomings, when presented, was beyond comical.

I'd suggest trying again, but realize you'd present the exact same factless accusation you started with.  I think Pollack had a term for that...."creative ommissions"  Your repetition in this endeavor is indeed appreciated
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 03:11:16 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2007, 12:45:54 PM »
ol

that's pretty weak mikey.

Did you type that with a straight face?
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On the contrary, BT, it is your response to my post that is "pretty weak."  Hell, it's more than "pretty weak," it is totally devoid of substance.  May I take it then that you really have nothing to say in response?  In which case, it would have been more honest to say so in the first place.  Robert Fisk is a reporter who has lived in the Middle East for decades and is intimately familiar with it.  His reporting has broken free of the pro-Israel straitjacket that the US MSM insist their reporters wear.  Predictably and for that reason only he was subjected to the usual character assassination and professional smears of the Zionist propaganda mill.  The tactics are familiar, one or two token Gentiles are induced to attack the guy (Simon Hoggart, the only heavyweight, possessing no special Middle East credentials but an otherwise decent reputation, can only fault him for "excessive pessimism" and mostly undocumented wrong predictions) and the other token gentile (apparently, judging from the name only) makes the absolutely meaningless slur that Fisk's analysis of the Middle East is akin to tales of alien abductions.  Well, Fisk has worked for some pretty well-respected papers in his day, and I don't recall any of them taking alien abduction stories seriously.  It'll take more than the opinion of someone named Eoghan Harris, whoever the hell he is, to convince me that there's anything at all weird in any of Fisk's stories.

As for Ethan Bronner's NYT attack, it's the usual hodgepodge of AIPAC-Zionist lies and whining, Fisk hates Israel, hates America, loves bin Laden, is twisted,  is blatantly biased, etc. etc. etc.  ad nauseam.  THIS from the paper of Judith Miller, no less.  That was the only bit of humour in the entire diatribe.

And of course the factual errors in Fisk's book, discovered by the eagle eye of the Israeli professor of history, Karsh.  This happened in the 8th Century, not the 7th Century, that was in 1972, not 1968, the diplomat's name was Greenberg, not Goldberg, all nit-picking over inconsequential details, which may have been Fisk's error, a typo, a typesetting error or even (God forbid!) Professor Karsh's error, but in any event nothing which would invalidate Fisk's underlying view of the Middle East and nothing that some half-decent fact-checking (the editor's and/or publisher's responsibility) wouldn't have cleaned up.

You're a sloppy thinker, BT.  You fall for the standard Zionist BS without thinking, without analyzing.  They're smart enough not to zap the guy with single points.  They accumulate a LOT of points, from various sources (ideally with the least number of Jewish-sounding names among them) and then put them into an article that creates the impression that the guy Fisk is under attack from LOTS of sources with LOTS of different grounds.  Therefore if only half that stuff is true, he's a very biased reporter.  Where there's smoke there's fire.  And you and millions like you, unfortunately, are just too fucking dumb to see through it.  You buy it wholesale, by the yard.  Never stopping to think, hey, this is all pretty much small beer; these criticisms are mostly just vague unsupported allegations of bias from people who must have no axe to grind, because they've got Irish names (never asking, HOW did this article come to be written, did anyone SUGGEST it to the writer, did anyone offer to pay for it and pay well for it?)   You are woefully ignorant, not only of AIPAC but of other major Zionist propaganda mills, and the money they have to rev up a PR campaign that includes widespread smearing of anyone perceived to be anti-Israel and to have access to the public or collective mind.  You're EXACTLY the kind of dolt that these campaigns are aimed at, and you're living proof of the fact that they work.

Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2007, 01:15:44 PM »
<<Quoting Wikipedia quoting a reporter by the name of Fisk, is not quoting Pollack, especially when the same source Wikipedia, also demonstrates the obvious problems Fisk has with "objective" reporting, as highlighted by Bt.  Your follow-up attempt to try and rationalize Fisk's shortcomings, when presented, was beyond comical.

<<I'd suggest trying again, but realize you'd present the exact same factless accusation you started with.  I think Pollack had a term for that...."creative ommissions"  Your repetition in this endeavor is indeed appreciated>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hilarious, especially the part about creative omissions.  Here's a creative omission that I really appreciated, and it comes from one of this group's greatest sources of creative omissions, who I believe you will recognize:

The evidence that supported my statement that Pollack supported the war in Iraq (and that simultaneously disproves your egregious lie that he opposed it from the get-go) consisted of several points:
1.  the title of his book, as reported by Wikipedia
2.  that Pollack was attacked by some people other than Fisk for his support of the war, as reported by Wikipedia
3.  that Pollack was attacked by Fisk for supporting the war, as reported by Wikipedia.

I found it hilarious that someone who has suddenly become an outspoken foe of creative omissions would attack my evidence that Pollack did not oppose the war from the get-go by dealing with only one piece of the evidence (Fisk's alleged attack,) creatively omitting to deal with the other two reasons, each of which is solid and viable in its own right.   Now THAT is creative omission.

And now I am going to be perfectly fair with you, sirs.  I will admit that Wikipedia can be wrong.  Yes, everything that I said about Pollack supporting the war initially comes from Wikipedia (well, almost everything - - plenty of other web sources support that he wrote the book The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq and that it was published before the invasion of Iraq.  But I am going to admit to you that EVERYTHING I read about Pollack on the web could be wrong.  Everything I found on the web could be a huge pack of lies about Pollack.  Yes, that is all possible.

But now I am going to tell you something else, sirs, something about common sense, about living in the real world, not in a paranoid fantasy.  My common sense and experience in the real world tells me that it's far more likely that what I read on the web about Pollack initially supporting the war is true than that it's false.  So, I choose to accept what I read.  I believe that what I found on the web and produced in this thread is evidence that Pollack did not oppose the war from the get-go but, rather, supported it enthusiastically and publicly.

So, my evidence is good enough for me.  I believe it's good enough for any other member of this group.  I believe it's good enough for any sane and normal individual.  And I believe it should be good enough for you.

Choose to accept it or choose to reject it, sirs, it's really all the same to me.  I produced it, I stand by it, and if you are too fucking stupid or stubborn to accept it, I think you have a serious problem but it's really none of my fucking business and I don't really give a shit.  Or, go out and find some evidence of your own to contradict me.  Buy the A-hole's book if you like.  Read it and see if Wikipedia's wrong, or if the criticism it reported is wrong.  Maybe the guy really DID oppose the war in his book.  But I'm not gonna speculate on that, I don't have the book, you don't have the book, and all I have to go on is what I found on the web.  And EVERYTHING I found on the web says that you are full of shit, that Pollack did NOT oppose the war from the get-go, that he in fact supported it and wrote a book in support of it.

BT

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Re: Soros
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2007, 01:34:12 PM »
Quote
On the contrary, BT, it is your response to my post that is "pretty weak."

And yet being BT'd is not a common term in Blogdom. Being Fisked is.

Perhaps Robert Fisk needs a better PR firm.


Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2007, 02:10:58 PM »
<<And yet being BT'd is not a common term in Blogdom. Being Fisked is.>>

No disrespect, but much more to the point, JUDITH MILLER is not being Judith Millered in Blogdom.  Fisk is being fisked.

<<Perhaps Robert Fisk needs a better PR firm. >>
Yeah, maybe he should ask AIPAC if they will fund him some equal-opportunity PR, just to level out the playing field.  How do you think AIPAC will respond?
---------------------------------
I also neglected to point out something else - - Eric S. Raymond is not only the author of the esteemed New Hacker's Dictionary, he is also the guy who writes a lot of Wikipedia's tech stuff.  Undoubtedly he is the author of the tech jargon section of Wikipedia.  He's very influential in the spread of the jargon and he's not exactly a neutral arbiter.  As his website indicates, he's very partisan, very pro-Israel and makes no secret of it.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 02:15:57 PM by Michael Tee »

BT

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Re: Soros
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2007, 02:26:37 PM »
Ah again the AIPAC boogeyman.

It's always the jews fault.

And yet Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit and an early fisker is not Jewish nor a pro zionist hawk. Go figure.


Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2007, 02:40:59 PM »
<<It's always the jews fault.>>

No, that's stupid.  AIPAC got to be the biggest or second biggest lobby in the country, but they're wasting all their money.  Don't get anything in return for all the dough they spend.  Shows ya how stupid they are.  Just a bunch of marks asking to be fleeced.  All their money wasted in pointless endeavours and not a single favourable word in the media for their efforts.  Almost have to feel sorry for the poor dumb schmucks, dontcha?

<<And yet Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit and an early fisker is not Jewish nor a pro zionist hawk. >>

No, he's not.  How did that happen?  Hmmm..  [scratching head in bewilderment]

<<Go figure.>>

Oh no I can't, BT.  It's way too complex for me.  I'd blow my brains out on that one.  I'll have to leave it to the innaleckshualls.