Dinner with Ahmadinejad

[BT]

If you are called to Serve, you Serve. It is for your superiors to decide the matters of which you describe.

Not true at all.

One can always choose their course of action if they are willing to accept the consequences of that choice.

[Plane]

Has the Professor really resigned from the forum?


Oh rats...


All contribution is volentary but I miss the volenteers we don't have now.

[_JS]

Has the Professor really resigned from the forum?


Oh rats...


All contribution is volentary but I miss the volenteers we don't have now.

No, he's right there as Mr. Perceptive.

Or someone who misspells the same words and makes eerily similar grammar errors has replaced him just after he left.

[Mr_Perceptive]

If you are called to Serve, you Serve. It is for your superiors to decide the matters of which you describe.

Not true at all.

One can always choose their course of action if they are willing to accept the consequences of that choice.

Good point. I stand corrected. You can choose to evade the draft and be incarcerated or whatever.

[Mr_Perceptive]

Has the Professor really resigned from the forum?


Oh rats...


All contribution is volentary but I miss the volenteers we don't have now.

He and his wife recently came back from Ethiopia with his new child. He emailed me a couple of weeks ago. I see him when I am at work. I am still away right now. I do value his friendship. We have known each other for many years now. He was an intel puke when I was still in the Corps.

[Mr_Perceptive]

Has the Professor really resigned from the forum?


Oh rats...


All contribution is volentary but I miss the volenteers we don't have now.

No, he's right there as Mr. Perceptive.

Or someone who misspells the same words and makes eerily similar grammar errors has replaced him just after he left.

Interesting. I didn't know that.

[Mr_Perceptive]

Has the Professor really resigned from the forum?


Oh rats...


All contribution is volentary but I miss the volenteers we don't have now.

He checked back every now and then, I understand. He was pissed about some issue or another. I doubt he will be back. His call.

[Michael Tee]

<<My grandfather fought in the German Army in World War II. I'm in the interesting position of having had both Grandfathers fight in World War II, on opposite sides.>>

What would have been interesting was if the two of them met.  I had a next-door neighbour who was one of the British troops that captured the Greek island of Kos from the Italians and was then taken prisoner by the Germans when they in turn invaded the island.  I have a very good friend whose dad was one of the Italian defenders of Kos, imprisoned by British forces until "liberated" by the Nazis.  I always meant to have them both over to our house at the same time, but it never happened.  We didn't socialize with our friend's mum and dad, so there never seemed to be anything to invite them over for. 

<<He was conscripted and not a member of the Nazi party by any means. He fought on the Eastern front against the Soviets.>>

Where most of the Nazi atrocities and war crimes were committed.  I bet he didn't know anything, did't see anything and didn't hear anything.

<< One thing you might not be considering is that the Nazis would also do harm to one's family if you did not fight. >>

I find that very hard to believe.  I saw the film Sophie Scholl, the true story of a 20-year-old university student executed for her role in the White Rose, a totally ineffective German anti-Nazi resistance cell.   Her father went to the court to protest the proceedings.  As far as I could tell from the film, no reprisals were taken against the Scholl family.  I've read numerous reports of German Jehovah's Witnesses executed for refusing to serve or even refusing to salute the flag.  Nothing that I'm aware of that indicates the families were punished.

<<Plus, there was no Internet or 24/7 news service at that time. Not everything the Nazis did was known to the people, especially in more rural parts of Germany.>>

That's a valid point.  Probably about the most valid one that could be raised in the defence of the bastards.  They just didn't know and had no reasonable way of knowing.  The Propaganda Ministry's grip on all sources of public information was absolute.  Every source of information available to the average 18-year-old was going to tell him the same story.  I used to wonder if maybe it was such a good thing to kill the bastards if it wasn't really their fault.  I mean it had to be done, but was it really an occasion for joy when one of them died or got seriously fucked up?  In the end, I couldn't buy it.  No matter what they'd been told, when they actually came face-to-face with the victims of their atrocities, they would have had to see the humanity that they were tasked with eradicating, and they had to sense the falseness of the Nazi narrative.  Similarly just to listen to their Nazi leaders - - if the listener had any basic humanity at all - - would have been to reveal the profound inhumanity at the base of their philosophy, the cruelty, the glorification of violence and force.  I don't believe in "innocent" Nazis.  They were presented with choices and enough information filtered through to enable them to make a moral choice.  Those who chose Hitler deserved to die for their choice.

[Amianthus]

I've read numerous reports of German Jehovah's Witnesses executed for refusing to serve or even refusing to salute the flag.  Nothing that I'm aware of that indicates the families were punished.

Many families of interned German Jehovah's Witnesses went into the concentration camps or prisons as well.

And this happened in many countries other than Germany - Canada included.

[Mr_Perceptive]

I've read numerous reports of German Jehovah's Witnesses executed for refusing to serve or even refusing to salute the flag.  Nothing that I'm aware of that indicates the families were punished.

Many families of interned German Jehovah's Witnesses went into the concentration camps or prisons as well.

And this happened in many countries other than Germany - Canada included.

Well, I do believe this is a valid exemption, e.g. religious beliefs.

[Amianthus]

Well, I do believe this is a valid exemption, e.g. religious beliefs.

In the US. Now. There was a Supreme Court case about it from the time of WWII, however.

[Xavier_Onassis]

It is not YOUR determination on whether a conflict is "just" if called up. If called up, you Serve your country. Period. All else is hogwash.

And, no, I was NOT in the Army. I was in the foremost fighting force on this planet, the United States Marine Corps. And, I retired some years ago.
===================================================================
Sorry, gyrene (or bogus gyrene, whatever the poo you might really be), but my life does not belong to any damned government, especially a STUPID one that thinks that the US is threatened by a Civil War in some alien land half the world away.

I am proud that I stood up to the stupidity and avoided involuntary servitude in defense of LBJ's or Nixon's "honor".

Instead of getting killed or maimed in an unwinnable, stupid war, I got my degree, and have never been unemployed. I pay my taxes every year and I suggest that we are all better off becauses of that than me getting killed or turned into a vegetable trying to win a Vietnamese Civil War.

Obviously, I didn't go, and I was not punished in any way at all. My participation would not have changed the outcome of that silly fiasco.

LBJ knew there would be no victory. So did Nixon. They knew that over 50,000 Americans died for nothing more than the stupidity of John Foster and Allen Dulles reflected in their foolish policies.

So I do not care even one small rat's ass that you were another numbskull Marine. To me, you were a sucker. And you still are.

That, or a zitfaced teenybopper who has assumed the persona of his grampa.

[_JS]

What would have been interesting was if the two of them met.  I had a next-door neighbour who was one of the British troops that captured the Greek island of Kos from the Italians and was then taken prisoner by the Germans when they in turn invaded the island.  I have a very good friend whose dad was one of the Italian defenders of Kos, imprisoned by British forces until "liberated" by the Nazis.  I always meant to have them both over to our house at the same time, but it never happened.  We didn't socialize with our friend's mum and dad, so there never seemed to be anything to invite them over for.

That is a very interesting story. My Grandfather (paternal) was in the Pacific theater though. His brother fought in France, where my maternal Grandfather's brother was also stationed for the German Army. I doubt they fought though. My Opa's (German for Grandfather) brother was some sort of radio mechanic and stationed in Paris I believe.

Where most of the Nazi atrocities and war crimes were committed.  I bet he didn't know anything, did't see anything and didn't hear anything.

No, quite the opposite. My Opa died when my mom was eleven years-old. I never knew him. He returned from the war a much changed man. He became an abusive alcoholic. The only person he would speak more than two words to was his brother (the one in France). The only thing he ever said about him was that "he saw worse than any human ever should." I don't think we'll ever know what all took place, but I have tried to retrace his steps during the war. I do know that at one point his commanding officers simply left the enlisted personnel behind (fleeing from the Red Army).

One thing you might not be considering is that the Nazis would also do harm to one's family if you did not fight.

Whether they actually did or not, the simple threat was probably believable enough. My grandmother (Oma) had a great story about voting one time that I'll have to tell you. "Great" as in horrific and memorable.

That's a valid point.  Probably about the most valid one that could be raised in the defence of the bastards.  They just didn't know and had no reasonable way of knowing.

It really wasn't until Vietnam that the world was able to see warfare for what it is. I've read Israeli media reports on the 1978 and 1982 invasions of Lebanon - the lies they told their own people were astounding by western media standards. I think 2006 was their first look at how their own country conducts a war, which is why it rapidly sank in popularity.

Cruelty in warfare was a part of how one fought a war before the 1960's shed a great deal of light on the subject (and the Cold War used the UN to magnify each side's tin pot dictators and their cruelties). Don't get me wrong, the Germans took this to an entirely new level in World War II. Yet, as you say propaganda was powerful and all sides engaged in it.

[Mr_Perceptive]

It is not YOUR determination on whether a conflict is "just" if called up. If called up, you Serve your country. Period. All else is hogwash.

And, no, I was NOT in the Army. I was in the foremost fighting force on this planet, the United States Marine Corps. And, I retired some years ago.
===================================================================
Sorry, gyrene (or bogus gyrene, whatever the poo you might really be), but my life does not belong to any damned government, especially a STUPID one that thinks that the US is threatened by a Civil War in some alien land half the world away.

I am proud that I stood up to the stupidity and avoided involuntary servitude in defense of LBJ's or Nixon's "honor".

Instead of getting killed or maimed in an unwinnable, stupid war, I got my degree, and have never been unemployed. I pay my taxes every year and I suggest that we are all better off becauses of that than me getting killed or turned into a vegetable trying to win a Vietnamese Civil War.

Obviously, I didn't go, and I was not punished in any way at all. My participation would not have changed the outcome of that silly fiasco.

LBJ knew there would be no victory. So did Nixon. They knew that over 50,000 Americans died for nothing more than the stupidity of John Foster and Allen Dulles reflected in their foolish policies.

So I do not care even one small rat's ass that you were another numbskull Marine. To me, you were a sucker. And you still are.

That, or a zitfaced teenybopper who has assumed the persona of his grampa.

With wimps like you, it is amazing this country still exists. I can see it now: every draftee analyzes whether they should actually go based upon THEIR OWN evaluation of whether the conflict they MAY NB headed toward is justifed in their own eyes. Horror personalified.

[_JS]

With wimps like you, it is amazing this country still exists. I can see it now: every draftee analyzes whether they should actually go based upon THEIR OWN evaluation of whether the conflict they MAY NB headed toward is justifed in their own eyes. Horror personalified.

But on the other end of the spectrum, you'd be a Burmese soldier firing on unarmed monks?