Author Topic: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration  (Read 11066 times)

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BT

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2007, 12:00:47 AM »
Perhaps, but legalizing both leads to lively downtowns.

Universe Prince

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2007, 12:21:26 AM »
If by lively, you mean people working and making a living, yeah, I'm sure you correct on at least one of those. And by that I mean, the one that started this conversation.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 02:42:01 AM by Universe Prince »
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BT

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2007, 12:32:27 AM »
If the discussion is the consequences of enforcing existing laws in main street america then legalized selling of drugs would be a boon to municipal coffers as products are taxed and services which seem to be the majority of businesses that shut down, aren't.


Universe Prince

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2007, 03:57:12 AM »
Actually, I think the discussion was the consequences of enacting laws intended to drive people away. But if you really want to discuss the consequences of enforcing existing laws in Main Street America, okay, I can roll with that.

Legalizing illegal drugs would be a help. I'm not sure all those empty stores would be snatched up by drug dealers in the fashion you seem to be thinking they will. But it might help government revenue if taxed. That said, if we're going to talk about the economic impact on smaller towns, I think immigration is the more important issue. Running customers and workers out of town is going to be bad for business whether there are folks selling narcotics legally or not.

Believe it or not, my major focus in these issues is not the government or the law. My focus is the people. I criticize the law when I think the law is bad for the people. If the law is bad, discussing how to enforce it better is then not solving the problem. Making more laws like it is then not the solution. The solution is to change or, if necessary, eliminate the law. But here, in the article from which I took excerpts, we have the story of a town that enacted a law that drove customers and employees out of town. And there are people saying this is a good thing. I'm watching the public debate on immigration be about whether we should have a wall or a fence, and how many armed guards do we need patrolling the border. If anyone suggests we don't need any of that, someone with your general response about rewarding lawbreakers chimes in, or worse, someone decides to talk about how the immigrants are going to ruin America.

Of course, open trade would help a great deal to elevate the economic fortunes of other countries and thus lessen the massive flow of immigrants to the U.S. to make a living. But of course, we can't do that either, because everyone thinks we're in some sort of competition with other countries and that if they rise then we fall, that we'll some how loose points in the great trade game. This is not true of course, but it is the conventional wisdom. So we seek our protectionist policies and any suggestion of opening up trade is met with complaints about protecting American jobs and loss of national sovereignty and all that jazz. The thing is, this doesn't just hurt the people in other countries, this also hurts Small Town/Main Street America. Hurt is relative, because we're generally pretty well off here in America, but we could be doing better, if we'd just let ourselves.

But we don't. We'd rather just make more laws to interfere with trade and immigration in name of protecting American values. I'm not sure why sugar subsidies and strict control of immigration are American values, but they must be. And meanwhile, folks in Riverside, New Jersey, get to see their businesses suffer and see some of their neighbors happy about it. And I'm left wondering why I really have to defend the idea that maybe we ought to consider getting rid of the laws that are doing us more harm than good.

So anyway, I'm still not entirely clear why you're trying to bring drug dealers into this. It seems like an odd tangent. Yes, I know, legalizing illegal activity and all, but how does this address the immigration problem? Or is your goal in this discussion something else?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Universe Prince

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2007, 04:11:48 AM »
From an article by Bryan Caplan, a professor of economics at George Mason University:

      Anti-foreign bias is easier to spot nowadays. To take one prominent example, immigration is far more of an issue now than it was in [Adam] Smith's time. Economists are predictably quick to see the benefits of immigration. Trade in labor is roughly the same as trade in goods. Specialization and exchange raise output--for instance, by letting skilled American moms return to work by hiring Mexican nannies.

In terms of the balance of payments, immigration is a nonissue. If an immigrant moves from Mexico City to New York and spends all his earnings in his new homeland, the balance of trade does not change. Yet the public still looks on immigration as a bald misfortune: jobs lost, wages reduced, public services consumed. Many in the general public see immigration as a distinct danger, independent of, and more frightening than, an unfavorable balance of trade. People feel all the more vulnerable when they reflect that these foreigners are not just selling us their products. They live among us.

It is misleading to think of "foreignness" as a simple either/or. From the viewpoint of the typical American, Canadians are less foreign than the British, who are in turn less foreign than the Japanese. From 1983 to 1987, 28 percent of Americans in the National Opinion Research Center's General Social Survey admitted they disliked Japan, but only 8 percent disliked England, and a scant 3 percent disliked Canada.

Objective measures like the volume of trade or the trade deficit are often secondary to physical, linguistic, and cultural similarity. Trade with Canada or Great Britain generates only mild alarm compared to trade with Mexico or Japan. U.S. imports from and trade deficits with Canada exceeded those with Mexico every year from 1985 to 2004. During the anti-Japan hysteria of the 1980s, British foreign direct investment in the U.S. always exceeded that of the Japanese by at least 50 percent. Foreigners who look like us and speak English are hardly foreign at all.

Calm reflection on the international economy reveals much to be thankful for and little to fear. On this point, economists past and present agree. But an important proviso lurks beneath the surface. Yes, there is little to fear about the international economy itself. But modern researchers rarely mention that attitudes about the international economy are another story. Paul Krugman hits the nail on the head: "The conflict among nations that so many policy intellectuals imagine prevails is an illusion; but it is an illusion that can destroy the reality of mutual gains from trade." We can see this today most vividly in the absurdly overblown political reactions to the immigration issue, from walls to forcing illegal workers currently in America to leave before they can begin an onerous procedure to gain paper legality.
      

Whole article at the other end of this link.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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_JS

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2007, 09:42:55 AM »
It is a completely separate issue.

For one, lawmakers view it as such. If you are going to be legalistic Bt, at least be genuine about it. Illegally entering the country is still only a misdemeanor offense. Employing or contracting an illegal alien without verifying his or her work status is a misdemeanor offense. It can be a felony, only if the Federal Government can prove that one encourages an alien to remain and work in the United States and that individual should reasonably know that the person is an illegal alien.

Generally the felony law is only used against labor trafficking. And even then, it results in a fine, property confiscation, and occasionally a jail sentence. Also, the Federal Courts have ruled that no state or local Governments may make separate laws dealing with illegal immigration, especially those that segregate immigrants.

Drug laws are a completely different ballgame (and you know it). The penalties are extremely stiff. Almost all are felonies, even very minor possession charges, but some of those can be varied by the states.

I agree with Prince that a lot of this has to do with

Quote
separating ourselves and protecting American virtue is so important and all

under the guise of "law and order" or "national security." Both of which are arguments that have proven to be very weak in merit, but strong in populism as racist ("protecting culture") arguments tend to be.
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BT

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2007, 10:12:25 AM »
Once again JS you and i disagree.

Because i think the real issue is what we expect our relationship with government to be.

On the one hand we have Prince advocating a hands off policy of government vis a vis illegal immigrants as well as a strong dislike for the "war on drugs"  and on the other hand we have advocates such as you for a strong government hand in such things as providing cradle to grave universal health care.

Prince's article details the unintended consequences of legislative acts. My response focuses whether these acts are legitimate uses of government power. They are related.








_JS

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2007, 10:22:36 AM »
You frame the argument too narrowly Bt.

As a socialist I do believe in universal healthcare for all. I also believe in a free moving labor market and free trade. I see class and the problems caused by that struggle, not race, and not national origin, and certainly not protecting any culture afraid of change.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

BT

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2007, 10:28:23 AM »
I'll frame my  argument as i please. And i certainly hope you aren't insinuating that i have some racist motivation behind how i choose to frame the argument, i think you would be hard pressed to provide any corroborating evidence of such an attitude.

_JS

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2007, 11:12:28 AM »
No Bt. I've known you too long for that and I certainly don't believe you're a racist at all.

I do believe there is a lot of racism in the argument against illegal immigration.

Actually, did we not have this discussion once and discovered that our beliefs aren't that far separated?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2007, 01:43:20 PM »



I was thinking about clinton talking about barrack obama.
he said the word articulate and the people are brought the race issue about it
because only a racist will call a non-white person articlulate.
pretty much some folks cannot give a compliment without sounding racist

=============================================
I don't think that this is being racist. Perhaps you have not noticed this, but the oratorical standards of Black Americans and Whit Americans are vastly different.
Black Americans who are thought of a great speakers come from a religious tradition: Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton toew examples of this. ML KIng could preach up a storm to Black people, but he moderated his chanting and constant Bible thumping when speaking to Whites, which is why he was so influential and why replacing him has not come close to happening.

To White Americans, Preacherspeak is seen as blather, and the blather of the rural rednecks, crackers and uneducated peasantry at that. It is normal for most educated  White Americans to turn off all manner of preacherspeak. This explains why Jackson and Sharpton are simply not very influential with Whiter Americans and are deeply loathed by many, even those who enjoy hearing White Biblethumpers.

Obama lacks the Southern accent and Ebonic grammar of most respected Black orators. This is what is meant by "articulate".

Jimmy Smits and Hector Elizondo are articulate Hispanics in the same way.

Black people are overly sensitive about any adjective used to describe them that suggests that they lack the same standards as White people. But the fact is that they do have different standards when it comes to oratorical skills.

If you say that "Chuck Norris is a pretty good karateka, for a White dude", White people are unoffended. This is becaue they recognize that most skilled martial arts heroes are Chinese/Korean/Japanese (I use this to avoid the word 'Asian' which is rather inaccurate, and 'Oriental' which is currently unpopular.

Racial reactions in the US are wacko. To wit:

Black Power is the motto of a proud people.
White Power is a racist slogan.

Polish Power is simply amusing.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

kimba1

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2007, 02:41:40 PM »


Obama lacks the Southern accent and Ebonic grammar of most respected Black orators. This is what is meant by "articulate".

that`s exactly what`s considered racist

that gets the response "what you think blacks only talk in ebonics?"

actually chuck norris technically is not just good he`s quite superior
I hear many times people say he could beat bruce lee
but nobody would believe that`s possible.
remember he was winning in return of the dragon till his chest hair got yanked

I see how the word asian would not work
and oriental does have a strangely offensive tone to it.



Universe Prince

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2007, 04:38:40 PM »

Prince's article details the unintended consequences of legislative acts. My response focuses whether these acts are legitimate uses of government power. They are related.


Much depends on what one expects the government to do. Do you expect the government to protect you from harm in the world, as these legislative acts are generally intended, or do you expect the government to protect your rights and otherwise leave you alone? The former gives the government the authority to tell other people how to live in your behalf, the latter merely gives the the government the authority to punish people who do or attempt to infringe on your rights. Some business hiring people from Mexico does not infringe on my rights. Some dude buying and snorting cocaine does not infringe on my rights. So is trying to forcibly control either of those behaviors a legitimate use of government power or not? You tell me.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2007, 07:03:07 PM »
Quote
Much depends on what one expects the government to do.

I disagree. Much depends on a clear understanding of what the powers of the United States Government as laid out in the constitution really is.

Are drug laws constitutional?

Are immigration laws constitutional?

It is not the ideal which we must pine for, it is the real ( as defined by the courts) that we have to deal with.


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: economic consequences of cracking down on illegal immigration
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2007, 09:53:05 PM »
that gets the response "what you think blacks only talk in ebonics?"

Actually, this is not much different than observing that Newt Gingrich does not have the fogtalk down south accent of Trent Lott, which isn't racist at all.
AS I said, the entire concept of "race" in the US is pretty wacky.


I see how the word asian would not work
and oriental does have a strangely offensive tone to it.

Asia is a very very large continent. Indians are Asians, Iranians are Asians, and so are most Turks, Kazakhs, and even Israelis. Lots and lots of Asians are not Chinese at all.

But there is no word in English for Chinese, and other than Oriental, no word that would describe Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese, Singaporeans and Thais.No doubt there are better words in Chinese, Japanese or Thai.

Obama is, in any case, articulate and not preachy at all.




 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."