Author Topic: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done  (Read 3459 times)

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Brassmask

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We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« on: September 27, 2007, 05:05:01 PM »
So now we find out that the alleged reason for illegally invading Iraq was not the true reason at all.  Saddam was not a threat technically, literally or any otherally.

The United States has been scammed.

All our blood and treasure have been lost for no reason whatsoever.  4000 dead soldiers because Bush and cult wanted the oil, wanted power, they wanted anything other than to get rid of Saddam Hussein because they could have just given him a Billion and not gotten anyone killed.  Instead they chose to get a lot of people kill and turn over billions to friends and family.

Saddam asked Bush for $1bn to go into exile and not be an issue any more to anyone but Bush declined.  Whatever could be the reason?



By DAVID GARDNER

Saddam Hussein offered to step down and go into exile one month before the invasion of Iraq, it was claimed last night.

Fearing defeat, Saddam was prepared to go peacefully in return for ?500million ($1billion).

The extraordinary offer was revealed yesterday in a transcript of talks in February 2003 between George Bush and the then Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar at the President's Texas ranch.

The White House refused to comment on the report last night.

But, if verified, it is certain to raise questions in Washington and London over whether the costly four-year war could have been averted.

Only yesterday, the Bush administration asked Congress for another ?100billion to finance the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan.

{R}


The total war bill for British taxpayers is expected to reach ?7billion by next year.

More than 3,800 American service personnel have lost their lives in Iraq, along with 170 Britons and tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

However, according to the tapes, one month before he launched the invasion Mr Bush appeared convinced that Saddam was serious about going into exile.

"The Eqyptians are speaking to Saddam Hussein," said Mr Bush.

"It seems he's indicated he would be prepared to go into exile if he's allowed to take $1billion and all the information he wants about weapons of mass destruction."

Asked by the Spanish premier whether Saddam - who was executed in December last year - could really leave, the President replied: "Yes, that possibility exists. Or he might even be assassinated."

But he added that whatever happened: "We'll be in Baghdad by the end of March."

Mr Bush went on to refer optimistically to the rebuilding or Iraq.

The transcript - which was published yesterday in the Spanish newspaper El Pais - was said to have been recorded by a diplomat at the meeting in Crawford, Texas, on February 22, 2003.

Mr Bush was dismissive of the then French President Jacques Chirac, saying he "thinks he's Mr Arab".

Referring to his relationship with Downing Street, he said: "I don't mind being the bad cop if Blair is the good cop."

The President added: "Saddam won't change and he'll keep on playing games.

"The time has come to get rid of him. That's the way it is."

Days before the invasion began on March 22, 2003, the United Arab Emirates proposed to a summit of Arab leaders that Saddam and his henchmen should go into exile.

It was the first time the plan had been officially voiced but it was drowned out in the drumbeat of war.

A spokesman for Mr Aznar's foundation had no comment on its authenticity.

Bomb attacks killed 57 people in Iraq yesterday.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Find this story at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=484162&in_page_id=1811
?2007 Associated New Media

Brassmask

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2007, 09:00:18 PM »
I can only assume that shame has taken hold and no one dares speak of Bush's choice to let Americans die instead of ponying up the 1 billion.

BT

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2007, 09:37:38 PM »
The exile offer is old news.

And American forces would have still been involved in Iraq even if Saddam stepped down.




BT

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2007, 10:38:38 PM »
MUCH IS BEING MADE of the scoop by pro-Zapatero's daily El Pa?s, in Madrid, of the transcript of the memo of a conversation between Bush and Spain's former PM Aznar in Crawford in March 2003 as the Iraq war was about to start. Editor and Publisher has a machine translation, which is quite atrocious. If you can read Spanish, the full text is here. I'll try to have a proper translation asap, but I am really short on time, so I don't know how soon I'll have it ready.

But what the transcript doesn't say, no matter the headlines, is that Bush was going to invade even if Saddam complied. What it says is that the US would be in Iraq in mid-March whether there was a second UN resolution or not, one that Bush said he would try to get by all means, which is an entirely different matter. As everybody knows, there's certainly a debate on whether the first resolution was enough or not -many reputable experts think it was, though there's not unanimity on this, certainly. But the issue is different.

Here's the relevant section:

    Bush: Sadam Husein no cambiar? y seguir? jugando. Ha llegado el momento de deshacerse de ?l. Es as?. Yo, por mi parte, procurar? a partir de ahora utilizar una ret?rica lo m?s sutil posible, mientras buscamos la aprobaci?n de la resoluci?n. Si alguien veta [Rusia, China y Francia poseen junto a EE UU y Reino Unido derecho a veto en el Consejo de Seguridad en su calidad de miembros permanentes], nosotros iremos. Sadam Hussein no se est? desarmando. Le tenemos que coger ahora mismo. Hemos mostrado un grado incre?ble de paciencia hasta ahora. Quedan dos semanas. En dos semanas estaremos militarmente listos. Creo que conseguiremos la segunda resoluci?n. En el Consejo de Seguridad tenemos a los tres africanos [Camer?n, Angola y Guinea], a los chilenos, a los mexicanos. Hablar? con todos ellos, tambi?n con Putin, naturalmente. Estaremos en Bagdad a finales de marzo. Existe un 15% de posibilidades de que en ese momento Sadam Hussein est? muerto o se haya ido. Pero esas posibilidades no existen antes de que hayamos mostrado nuestra resoluci?n. Los egipcios est?n hablando con Sadam Hussein. Parece que ha indicado que estar?a dispuesto a exiliarse si le dejaran llevarse 1.000 millones de d?lares y toda la informaci?n que quisiera sobre armas de destrucci?n masiva. [Muammar El] Gaddafi le ha dicho a Berlusconi que Sadam Hussein quiere irse. Mubarak nos dice que en esas circunstancias existen muchas posibilidades de que sea asesinado.

    Nos gustar?a actuar con el mandato de las Naciones Unidas. Si actuamos militarmente lo haremos con una gran precisi?n y focalizando mucho nuestros objetivos. Diezmaremos a las tropas leales y el ej?rcito regular r?pidamente sabr? de lo que se trata. ... Estamos desarrollando un paquete de ayuda humanitaria muy fuerte. Podemos ganar sin destrucci?n. Estamos planteando ya el Irak post Sadam, y creo que hay buenas bases para un futuro mejor. Irak tiene una buena burocracia y una sociedad civil relativamente fuerte. Se podr?a organizar en una federaci?n. Mientras tanto estamos haciendo todo lo posible para atender las necesidades pol?ticas de nuestros amigos y aliados."

[Bush: Saddam won't change and will keep playing games. The moment of getting rid of him has arrived. That's it. As for me, from now on I'll try to use the softest rhetoric I can, while we look for the resolution to be approved. If some country vetoes [the resolution] we'll go in. Saddam is not disarming. We must catch him right now. We have shown an incredible amount of patience until now. We have two weeks. In two weeks our military will be ready. I think we'll achieve a second resolution. In the Security Council we have three African countries [Cameroon, Angola, Guinea], the Chileans, the Mexicans. I'll talk with all of them, also with Putin, naturally. We'll be in Baghdad at the end of March. There's a 15% chance that by then Saddam is dead or has flown. But these possibilities won't exist until we have shown our resolution. The Egyptians are talking with Saddam Hussein. It seems he has hinted he'd be willing to leave if he's allowed to take 1 billion dollars and all the information on WMDs. Ghadaffi told Berlusconi that Saddam wants to leave. Mubarak tells us that in these circumstances there are big chances that he'll get killed.

We would like to act with the mandate of the UN. If we act militarily, we'll do with great precision and focalizing our targets to the biggest degree possible. We'll decimate the loyal troops and the regular army will quickly know what it's all about. ... We are developing a very strong aid package. We can win without destruction. We are working already in the post-Saddam Iraq, and I think there's a basis for a better future. Iraq has a good bureaucracy and a relatively strong civil society. It could be organized as a federation. Meanwhile we're doing all we can to fulfill the political needs of our friends and allies. -- note: my emphasis and translation]

If anything, the transcript proves precisely the opposing point that critics want to make. The conversation shows both Bush and Aznar trying to avoid war; that they were concerned of its human toll, and that Saddam wanted to flee with money... and WMD information. I guess all the people who are trumpeting this will stop saying now that Bush lied and mislead us on the WMD issue. Won't hold my breath, though.

At one point Bush explicitely says: "Yo no quiero la guerra. S? lo que son las guerras. S? la destrucci?n y la muerte que traen consigo. Yo soy el que tiene que consolar a las madres y a las viudas de los muertos. Por supuesto, para nosotros esa ser?a la mejor soluci?n. Adem?s, nos ahorrar?a 50.000 millones de d?lares" ["I don't want war. I know what war is like. I know the death and destruction they bring. I am the one who has to comfort the mothers and wives of the dead. Of course, for us [a diplomatic solution] would be the best one. Also, it would save 50 billion dollars" -- again, my emphasis and translation]

Bush even wanted to soften the rivalry with Chirac, and thought he was being ill-advised. He even asked Aznar to send the French president his best wishes, since Aznar was going to meet him in the next days.

As I said, I'll try to have the full translation, but this is the gist of it. Clearly this is not an equivalent to the Downing Street memo, but a leak from a Zapatero administration official to an anti-Bush, anti-Aznar newspaper in the hope of embarrassing the two, and atrociously translated to make it all look worse. But I'm sorry to say they only embarrassed themselves. No matter how much you spin it, the memorandum shows exactly the opposite to what they say it shows. In layman terms, they got hoisted by their own petard.


http://barcepundit-english.blogspot.com/2007/09/much-is-being-made-of-scoop-by-pro.html

XO I know you are fluent in Spanish. Please point out any inaccuracies in the translations involved with this article.


sirs

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2007, 03:58:16 AM »
Only Brass and like minds could advocate paying off a dictator, responsible for the murder of thousands upon thousands, at the toon of a billion.  Hey, let's pay Usama 10billion, if he'll promise to be good       >:(
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Brassmask

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2007, 11:21:50 AM »
Only Brass and like minds could advocate paying off a dictator, responsible for the murder of thousands upon thousands, at the toon of a billion.  Hey, let's pay Usama 10billion, if he'll promise to be good       >:(

Oh, you're sooooo right.  Forgive the fuck out of me.  It's make so much MORE sense to illegally invade Iraq and have 4000 MORE AMERICANS die just to kill one lone idiot.  Not to mention turning that country into a hotbed of terrorist training grounds and creating a mercenary army that takes no orders from anyone and killing 300,000 Iraqis and forking over a trillion dollars to cronies (or whoever, we really don't know) and making Iraq a WORSE place to live and having the price of oil nearly triple in that time and dividing our own country in two and all the other things that have happened because we wouldn't want to pay off a dictator who we put in and couldn't control anymore.

You're so right.  My bad.  It's so much better to have the world think of America as some braindead, testosterone-riddled moron with smalldick syndrome.

 ::)

sirs

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2007, 11:27:17 AM »
Only Brass and like minds could advocate paying off a dictator, responsible for the murder of thousands upon thousands, at the toon of a billion.  Hey, let's pay Usama 10billion, if he'll promise to be good       >:(

Oh, you're sooooo right.  Forgive the fuck out of me.  It's make so much MORE sense to illegally invade Iraq .....

Welp, start with a false premise, and no need to take anything else that follows, seriously

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2007, 11:34:36 AM »
Welp, start with a false premise, and no need to take anything else that follows, seriously

You do realize that is logically untrue, right?

You are making the logical fallacy of denying the antecedent.

Example:

    If it's raining, then the streets are wet.
    It isn't raining.
    Therefore, the streets aren't wet.

See why that is a fallacy?

I've seen you say that a dozen times recently. Just thought I'd point that out. Your arguments will be stronger if you think a bit more logically.
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sirs

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2007, 11:37:00 AM »
Welp, start with a false premise, and no need to take anything else that follows, seriously

You do realize that is logically untrue, right?

Not really.  If one is going to start off their rant...I mean rhetoric with a patantly upsurd position, why take the time and energy to consider anything else that follows as substantive or serious?  Especially given the track record of said poster




"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2007, 11:41:41 AM »
Welp, start with a false premise, and no need to take anything else that follows, seriously

You do realize that is logically untrue, right?

Not really.  If one is going to start off their rant...I mean rhetoric with a patantly upsurd position, why take the time and energy to consider anything else that follows as substantive or serious?  Especially given the track record of said poster

Ahem. You do realize that your statement is a logical fallacy, do you not?

Quote
start with a false premise, and no need to take anything else that follows, seriously

That statement is simply false. I don't think it is too nuanced to follow. I'm just trying to help you make a stronger retort.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Henny

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2007, 11:57:18 AM »
Ahem. You do realize that your statement is a logical fallacy, do you not?

LOL. Logic and Symbolic Logic were my favorite classes. However, when one gets too hung up in logical form, one starts to talk like Mr. Spock.  ;D

Amianthus

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2007, 11:58:03 AM »
That statement is simply false. I don't think it is too nuanced to follow. I'm just trying to help you make a stronger retort.

You mean people use logic around here?

Precious little that I've seen...
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2007, 12:13:32 PM »
Ahem. You do realize that your statement is a logical fallacy, do you not?

LOL. Logic and Symbolic Logic were my favorite classes. However, when one gets too hung up in logical form, one starts to talk like Mr. Spock.  ;D

That's fair, and we shouldn't get into p and q.

Yet, Augustine made this same point as well. He surprised many people in the early Church when he argued that pagan works can contain very useful information for Christians. (More to the point, he argued that there could exist wisdom, even in the words of non-Christians).

But at its most basic, he was arguing that you cannot throw an entire book away by simply rejecting the initial philosophy.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Richpo64

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2007, 01:08:46 PM »
>>LOL. Logic and Symbolic Logic were my favorite classes. However, when one gets too hung up in logical form, one starts to talk like Mr. Spock.<<

Fascinating.


Plane

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Re: We Could Have Given Saddam A Billion And Been Done
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2007, 12:51:07 AM »
Only Brass and like minds could advocate paying off a dictator, responsible for the murder of thousands upon thousands, at the toon of a billion.  Hey, let's pay Usama 10billion, if he'll promise to be good       >:(

It woud be a bargan if it worked , and Saddam was well known for being trustworthy wasn't he?

Certainly he wouldn't wave the bribe like a trophy from the balcony of a palace on national TV as he denounced the bribers.

What was a billion to Saddam? Six months wages?