Author Topic: Start the draft, or get out  (Read 14428 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lanya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3300
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Start the draft, or get out
« on: October 16, 2007, 04:01:53 PM »
The Real Iraq We Knew

By 12 former Army captains
Tuesday, October 16, 2007; 12:00 AM

Today marks five years since the authorization of military force in Iraq, setting Operation Iraqi Freedom in motion. Five years on, the Iraq war is as undermanned and under-resourced as it was from the start. And, five years on, Iraq is in shambles.

As Army captains who served in Baghdad and beyond, we've seen the corruption and the sectarian division. We understand what it's like to be stretched too thin. And we know when it's time to get out.
   
What does Iraq look like on the ground? It's certainly far from being a modern, self-sustaining country. Many roads, bridges, schools and hospitals are in deplorable condition. Fewer people have access to drinking water or sewage systems than before the war. And Baghdad is averaging less than eight hours of electricity a day.

Iraq's institutional infrastructure, too, is sorely wanting. Even if the Iraqis wanted to work together and accept the national identity foisted upon them in 1920s, the ministries do not have enough trained administrators or technicians to coordinate themselves. At the local level, most communities are still controlled by the same autocratic sheiks that ruled under Saddam. There is no reliable postal system. No effective banking system. No registration system to monitor the population and its needs.

The inability to govern is exacerbated at all levels by widespread corruption. Transparency International ranks Iraq as one of the most corrupt countries in the world. And, indeed, many of us witnessed the exploitation of U.S. tax dollars by Iraqi officials and military officers. Sabotage and graft have had a particularly deleterious impact on Iraq's oil industry, which still fails to produce the revenue that Pentagon war planners hoped would pay for Iraq's reconstruction. Yet holding people accountable has proved difficult. The first commissioner of a panel charged with preventing and investigating corruption resigned last month, citing pressure from the government and threats on his life.

Against this backdrop, the U.S. military has been trying in vain to hold the country together. Even with "the surge," we simply do not have enough soldiers and marines to meet the professed goals of clearing areas from insurgent control, holding them securely and building sustainable institutions. Though temporary reinforcing operations in places like Fallujah, An Najaf, Tal Afar, and now Baghdad may brief well on PowerPoint presentations, in practice they just push insurgents to another spot on the map and often strengthen the insurgents' cause by harassing locals to a point of swayed allegiances. Millions of Iraqis correctly recognize these actions for what they are and vote with their feet -- moving within Iraq or leaving the country entirely. Still, our colonels and generals keep holding on to flawed concepts.

U.S. forces, responsible for too many objectives and too much "battle space," are vulnerable targets. The sad inevitability of a protracted draw-down is further escalation of attacks -- on U.S. troops, civilian leaders and advisory teams. They would also no doubt get caught in the crossfire of the imminent Iraqi civil war.

Iraqi security forces would not be able to salvage the situation. Even if all the Iraqi military and police were properly trained, equipped and truly committed, their 346,000 personnel would be too few. As it is, Iraqi soldiers quit at will. The police are effectively controlled by militias. And, again, corruption is debilitating. U.S. tax dollars enrich self-serving generals and support the very elements that will battle each other after we're gone.

This is Operation Iraqi Freedom and the reality we experienced. This is what we tried to communicate up the chain of command. This is either what did not get passed on to our civilian leadership or what our civilian leaders chose to ignore. While our generals pursue a strategy dependent on peace breaking out, the Iraqis prepare for their war -- and our servicemen and women, and their families, continue to suffer.

There is one way we might be able to succeed in Iraq. To continue an operation of this intensity and duration, we would have to abandon our volunteer military for compulsory service. Short of that, our best option is to leave Iraq immediately. A scaled withdrawal will not prevent a civil war, and it will spend more blood and treasure on a losing proposition.

America, it has been five years. It's time to make a choice.

This column was written by 12 former Army captains: Jason Blindauer served in Babil and Baghdad in 2003 and 2005. Elizabeth Bostwick served in Salah Ad Din and An Najaf in 2004. Jeffrey Bouldin served in Al Anbar, Baghdad and Ninevah in 2006. Jason Bugajski served in Diyala in 2004. Anton Kemps served in Babil and Baghdad in 2003 and 2005. Kristy (Luken) McCormick served in Ninevah in 2003. Luis Carlos Montalv?n served in Anbar, Baghdad and Nineveh in 2003 and 2005. William Murphy served in Babil and Baghdad in 2003 and 2005. Josh Rizzo served in Baghdad in 2006. William "Jamie" Ruehl served in Nineveh in 2004. Gregg Tharp served in Babil and Baghdad in 2003 and 2005. Gary Williams served in Baghdad in 2003.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/15/AR2007101500841.html
« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 04:38:40 PM by Lanya »
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2007, 04:15:31 PM »
So at least we know that Lanya & like minds are the ones who want a draft.  So long as that's been made clear, where any public & political fall out will rain
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Lanya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3300
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2007, 04:40:21 PM »
I don't believe I said I wanted a draft.  The 12 captains said that either get out OR start a draft, so I don't know if THEY want a draft, either. 
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2007, 04:43:10 PM »
Start the draft or get out appears to be the title of the thread.  Since we're not 'getting out" (especially noting how none of the current Dem candidates, including front runner Hillary are pushing that line any longer) leaves us with start the draft.  No??  Did you not start this thread?  Do you not "stand by what it says"?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Mr_Perceptive

  • Guest
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2007, 04:46:53 PM »
I concur with the article.

Let's begin immediately, as soon as the Services indicate they are ready (DIs trained and ready, facilities ready and available, etc.)

The only deferments available would be for medical disability and perhaps a few others, tightly constrained in numbers.

Evasion would result in incarceration and/or loss in citizenship.

Richpo64

  • Guest
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2007, 04:48:37 PM »
I'm all for it. As long as women are included.

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2007, 05:01:38 PM »
Start the draft or get out appears to be the title of the thread.  Since we're not 'getting out" (especially noting how none of the current Dem candidates, including front runner Hillary are pushing that line any longer) leaves us with start the draft.  No??  Did you not start this thread?  Do you not "stand by what it says"?

Lanya quite clearly condensed the meaning of the article into a simple title. If you read the article, the captains who authored it are very clear that they feel compulsory service is necessary to win in Iraq. They explain Iraq's situation on the ground and why the surge only moves the insurgents, as opposed to destroying them.

It is an interesting article.

Yet, instead of reading it and commenting on it. You attack Lanya. I don't know why you all continue to treat her in such a terrible fashion. We have a few women on this board, whose viewpoints would be very nice to keep, yet for whatever reason you and a few others treat Lanya in the most ungentlemanly of manners.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2007, 05:22:17 PM »
Start the draft or get out  appears to be the title of the thread.  Since we're not 'getting out" (especially noting how none of the current Dem candidates, including front runner Hillary are pushing that line any longer) leaves us with start the draft.  No??  Did you not start this thread?  Do you not "stand by what it says"?

Lies, lies,lies.

Bill Richardson said he'd get out within a year, and Dernnis Kucinich said he'd do it even sooner.

The Democrats-all of them- will try to get out sooner than the Republicans, because except for Ron Paul, none has any intention of leaving.

There won't be a draft, either. The captains may be right, but they can screw themselves, because it won't happen.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2007, 05:53:44 PM »
Start the draft or get out appears to be the title of the thread.  Since we're not 'getting out" (especially noting how none of the current Dem candidates, including front runner Hillary are pushing that line any longer) leaves us with start the draft.  No??  Did you not start this thread?  Do you not "stand by what it says"?

Yet, instead of reading it and commenting on it. You attack Lanya. I don't know why you all continue to treat her in such a terrible fashion.

I think it still stems from this position she presents as how Republicans want women to die of cancer, a position she still apparently stands by, and likely now with the added notion of how Bush & Republicans don't want poor children to have healthcare & die, based on the latest Bush veto of simply not expanding it as exponentially as the Dems wanted to.  Go ahead, ask her. This ends justifying the means approach to positions she supports, in bashing Bush, Republicans, & Conservatives really ranks as near knute-like. 

There was a time when Lanya was a strong advocate of leftest ideals, but when presented with facts and logic to the contrary, would often apologise for getting out of hand with the rhetoric and accusations.  Something's changed, and its unfortunate, since I really miss the ol' Lanya.  The current one could arguably be a sibbling of Michael Moore   :-\


Start the draft or get out  appears to be the title of the thread.  Since we're not 'getting out" (especially noting how none of the current Dem candidates, including front runner Hillary are pushing that line any longer) leaves us with start the draft.  No??  Did you not start this thread?  Do you not "stand by what it says"?

Lies, lies,lies.  Bill Richardson said he'd get out within a year, and Dernnis Kucinich said he'd do it even sooner.

Try FRONT runners, Xo.  Try Hillary, then get back to me on her "when"


« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 06:18:06 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8010
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2007, 06:09:29 PM »
I know people who served in vietnam
all they say about the draft is the kill rate goes up alot more when it happens
meaning if we do this we must think of these men as abit more in the disposable catagory
It`s abit unrealistic to think a involuntary unit will be just as good as a voluntary unit
canon fodder is the term i believe.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2007, 06:25:59 PM »
The way our politicks are run, a Draft is problimatic the idea is a total orphan as far as real sponsors go.

But why the gloomy assessment anyway?

Al Queda is getting busted up seriously , if the purpose of Iraq was to put Al Queda into a meatgrinder we have a serious success going on.

The rebuilding of Iraq isn't going to require ay more of the US than the US is already giveing , but it wil certainly require  a lot from Iriquis , these officers are not pointing out an inadequacy in the US Army or Marine corp , they are complaining that the Iriquis are too much plagued with corruption.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2007, 06:33:28 PM »
But remember Plane, the oil belongs to us.  That's why we went in, and that's why we're arranging for all that Iraqi oil to be sent to America






 ;)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2007, 06:34:21 PM »

I concur with the article.

Let's begin immediately, as soon as the Services indicate they are ready (DIs trained and ready, facilities ready and available, etc.)

The only deferments available would be for medical disability and perhaps a few others, tightly constrained in numbers.

Evasion would result in incarceration and/or loss in citizenship.


I'm not sure which is a worse abridgment of individual rights, military conscription or incarceration. But seeing who is in favor of military conscription is a bit revealing. It is a clue as to who actually gives a damn about individual rights and as to who thinks the government should try to control society.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2007, 07:34:52 PM »
Try FRONT runners, Xo.  Try Hillary, then get back to me on her "when"

===================================================
THere are no front runners yet. All they are doing now is amassing money, which proves nothing.

Remember John Connally, who raised a fortune and got one delegate to the GOP convention.

The campaign has yet to begin.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Start the draft, or get out
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2007, 08:14:58 PM »
Try FRONT runners, Xo.  Try Hillary, then get back to me on her "when"

===================================================
THere are no front runners yet.

LOL......ok, you go right ahead and believe that.  I'll be sure not to show you ANY current poll that shows Hillary in all forms of various levels of leading the pack, in some polls by as many as 20+points.

 ::)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle